What's made you grumpy today?

[Most Easterly Pandas]

no but i know about risk management and actions that are ‘reasonable in the circumstances’.

Whats more reasonable, ie less likly for them to injure themself on school property than not allowing them to come in then?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the little brats going in, slipping over on a bit of snow is part of life. I'm fed up of being overworked at work atm as half the people are off looking after their kids. Still doesn't change the issue in hand though. All stems from one or two idiots trying it on (sueing the school) and look what happens

 

[ChrisUK]

Well I'm sorry but I'm finding the opposite. We do ICT support for a lot of Schools in the North East and fair play the majority of them are remaining open. It depends a great deal on the attitude of the head teacher.

 

[dave]

All stems from one or two idiots trying it on (sueing the school) and look what happens

got a link to some one winning and not being over turned on appeal ? or it didnt happen.

 

[Andy Monty]

i know of 3 successful claims for slips in one school

 

[Dragon Man]

the fact you can be sued for removing snow from the pavement in front of your house.

its getting to the point now where you dont help anybody for the risk of getting sued.
even something stupid like helping some one get up if have fallen.

 

[ChrisUK]

We're slowly and surely turning into the U.S.A. Bring back common sense for the love of god!

 

[homeward]

I'd like to throw this article on the BBC website into the debate....

That's all he wrote.... :wave:

 

[Dominion]

Well I'm sorry but I'm finding the opposite. We do ICT support for a lot of Schools in the North East and fair play the majority of them are remaining open. It depends a great deal on the attitude of the head teacher.

Very true. So many people complain that "everyone can get to work except teachers again". What a bullsh!t statement that is. Since when do teachers decide whether a school will open or close. That's a management decision. Always has been and always will be. Many teachers would prefer to go to school when they are supposed to be there because they have to work to a long-term plan, and it's very easy for that plan to be knocked out of whack and a real pain in the arse to get back on track again.
Also, if school opens, and a fair few of the kids are no shows because their parents took the often sensible decision not to risk driving them to school, or the buses weren't running, then there is no point carrying on with normal lessons as they'll only have to repeat it when the other kids get back to school.
For example, my son's school opened today, and since we live in walking distance, we took him in. There were about 6 kids out of 30 in his class showed up, so they've apparently spent all day watching videos. I'm really pissed off by this as he could've spent the day sledging with me.

Also, another stupid fcuking argument about teachers is when people complain that they get "really long holidays" and "only work six hours a day" and "teachers are overpaid" etc etc etc (we've heard them all before). If the people that think these are valid reasons for complaints, STFU, put your jealousy aside for a few years, get your arse to uni, do a degree for 3 years, do a PGCE for a year, give up your evenings and weekends, then try to educate a bunch of hormonal young people who don't want to be there about stuff they don't care about (of course, I'm talking about secondary school kids here, but much of this applies from primary through to college and beyond).

Hey, guess what? I can rant!

 

[Dominion]

Also, I tried to use my son's sledge as a snowboard and I've knackered my back. Can't stand up properly now. I'm too old for all this "having fun" business.

 

[jenks69]

I've got a really really bad stomach feel bloated like I could explode at any moment baby had it friday / saturday SWMBO had it at 4am, now I've had it since about 6am in work and feel rubbish can't face food, I've tried to make myself sick but all that comes up is white foam WTF!

 

[dombooth]

If I clear the snow outside my shop and someone slips on it they can claim off me for not clearing it properly! Hence why I don't bother.

Dom

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

We're slowly and surely turning into the U.S.A. Bring back common sense for the love of god!

No longer common

 

[dave]

i know of 3 successful claims for slips in one school

where's the link? who paid the school or their public liability insurance, shops are all open they have same duty of care and risks.

oh and hospitals, all the hospitals are open

 

[dave]

Very true. So many people complain that "everyone can get to work except teachers again". What a bullsh!t statement that is. Since when do teachers decide whether a school will open or close. That's a management decision.

Rob Anthony interviewed on the news today say it is the head Teachers decision, he also said its nothing to do with worried about being sued,

, STFU, put your jealousy aside for a few years, get your arse to uni, do a degree for 3 years, do a PGCE for a year,

some unis also had a snow day today

 

[Dominion]

all the teachers and everybody else interviewed on the news today say it is the head Teachers decision

Very few headteachers actually teach. They are usually managers, just like a manager in any other type of business.

some unis also had a snow day today

And....?

 

[dave]

Very few headteachers actually teach. They are usually managers, just like a manager in any other type of business.

still a teacher and he said he decides by ringing up other teachers and seeing what they reckon

 

[Andy Monty]

no but i know about risk management and actions that are ‘reasonable in the circumstances’.

its not concidered reasonable for paths to be cleared during heavy falls of snow. so no one can win a case if they fall on that path (as an insurance advisor you should know this)

Ok then you know about risk management......

General duties of persons concerned with premises to persons other than their employees.

(1)This section has effect for imposing on persons duties in relation to those who—
(a)are not their employees; but
(b)use non-domestic premises made available to them as a place of work or as a place where they may use plant or substances provided for their use there,and applies to premises so made available and other non-domestic premises used in connection with them.
(2)It shall be the duty of each person who has, to any extent, control of premises to which this section applies or of the means of access thereto or egress therefrom or of any plant or substance in such premises to take such measures as it is reasonable for a person in his position to take to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that the premises, all means of access thereto or egress therefrom available for use by persons using the premises, and any plant or substance in the premises or, as the case may be, provided for use there, is or are safe and without risks to health.
(3)Where a person has, by virtue of any contract or tenancy, an obligation of any extent in relation to—
(a)the maintenance or repair of any premises to which this section applies or any means of access thereto or egress therefrom; or
(b)the safety of or the absence of risks to health arising from plant or substances in any such premises;that person shall be treated, for the purposes of subsection (2) above, as being a person who has control of the matters to which his obligation extends.
(4)Any reference in this section to a person having control of any premises or matter is a reference to a person having control of the premises or matter in connection with the carrying on by him of a trade, business or other undertaking (whether for profit or not).




40 Onus of proving limits of what is practicable etc.

In any proceedings for an offence under any of the relevant statutory provisions consisting of a failure to comply with a duty or requirement to do something so far as is practicable or so far as is reasonably practicable, or to use the best practicable means to do something, it shall be for the accused to prove (as the case may be) that it was not practicable or not reasonably practicable to do more than was in fact done to satisfy the duty or requirement, or that there was no better practicable means than was in fact used to satisfy the duty or requirement.




coupled with this

1 Management*of*Health*and*Safety*at*Work*Regulations*1999: require
employers*to*carry*out*risk*assessments,*make*arrangements*to*implement
necessary*measures,*appoint*competent*people*and*arrange*for*appropriate
information*and*training.*


Hierarchy of hazard control spring to mind?

Taking into account that you are dealing with Young persons not adults in the eyes of the law....

You have to fall back on Administrative controls eg shutting the school

+
you have the safety of your staff to considerer.

Ok Mrs Smith the french teacher might slip on the car park and bruise her backside...

But what about the 64 Year old School caretaker as everyone assumes the caretaker will clear the snow when he arrives at 6:30 He is working alone therefore he comes under the lone working regulations

http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/workalone.htm

one workers should not be at more risk than other employees. This may require extra risk-control measures. Precautions should take account of normal work and foreseeable emergencies, e.g. fire, equipment failure, illness and accidents. Employers should identify situations where people work alone and ask questions such as:

Does the workplace present a special risk to the lone worker?
Is there a safe way in and a way out for one person? Can any temporary access equipment which is necessary, such as portable ladders or trestles, be safely handled by one person?
Can all the plant, substances and goods involved in the work be safely handled by one person? Consider whether the work involves lifting objects too large for one person or whether more than one person is needed to operate essential controls for the safe running of equipment.
Is there a risk of violence?
Are women especially at risk if they work alone?
Are young workers especially at risk if they work alone?
Is the person medically fit and suitable to work alone?
What happens if the person becomes ill, has an accident or there is an emergency?


Duties of persons having control of premises
Section 4 defines a duty of occupiers of premises, for example commercial landlords, managers of serviced office accommodation, and also maintenance contractors, towards people who use those premises for work. Those premises, and the means of entry and exit, must be, as far as reasonably practicable, safe and without risks to health.



Then factor in most schools are council run and the education gaffer at the council who is ultimately liable if anything goes wrong doesn't want to be going out out buy a soap on a rope....

http://www.hse.gov.uk/corpmanslaughter/index.htm


then advice from the HSE

Ice, frost and snow
To reduce the risk of slips on ice, frost or snow, you need to assess the risk and put in a system to manage it.
Identify the outdoor areas used by pedestrians most likely to be affected by ice, for example: - building entrances, car parks, pedestrian walkways, shortcuts, sloped areas and areas constantly in the shade or wet.
Monitor the temperature, as prevention is key.
You need to take action whenever freezing temperatures are forecast. Keep up to date by visiting a weather service site such as the Met Office or the Highways Agency .
There are also smart signs on the market, available to buy at low cost, which display warning messages at 50 and below.
Put a procedure in place to prevent an icy surface forming and/or keep pedestrians off the slippery surface;
Use grit (see separate article below for more detail) or similar, on areas prone to be slippery in frosty, icy conditions;
Consider covering walkways e.g. by an arbour high enough for people to walk through, or use an insulating material on smaller areas overnight;
Divert pedestrians to less slippery walkways and barrier off existing ones.
If warning cones are used, remember to remove them once the hazard has passed or they will eventually be ignored.
Gritting
The most common method used to de-ice floors is gritting as it is relatively cheap, quick to apply and easy to spread. Rock salt (plain and treated) is the most commonly used ‘grit’. It is the substance used on public roads by the highways authority.

Salt can stop ice forming and cause existing ice or snow to melt. It is most effective when it is ground down, but this will take far longer on pedestrian areas than on roads.

Gritting should be carried out when frost, ice or snow is forecast or when walkways are likely to be damp or wet and the floor temperatures are at, or below freezing. The best times are early in evening before the frost settles and/or early in the morning before employees arrive. Salt doesn’t work instantly; it needs sufficient time to dissolve into the moisture on the floor.

If you grit when it is raining heavily the salt will be washed away, causing a problem if the rain then turns to snow. Compacted snow, which turns to ice, is difficult to treat effectively with grit. Be aware that ‘dawn frost’ can occur on dry surfaces, when early morning dew forms and freezes on impact with the cold surface. It can be difficult to predict when or where this condition will occur.

where's the link? who paid the school or their public liability insurance, shops are all open they have same duty of care and risks.

oh and hospitals, all the hospitals are open

What link? not every where theres is a claim makes the Daily Mail

Shops and Hospitals are not usually run riot with Young persons Strangely our local hospital car park has been well salted and all paths clear they have the man power to do the job properly

Shops are often small enterprises who's MD doesn't give a stuff about health and safety as long as they are making money....... But they dont have the best part of 600 children all walking in at smack on 9 oclock knocking snow all off their shoes the first 100 kids probably no issue but by then the floor will be wet and probably very slippery......... Sign age for risks with Young persons is not suitable as a control measure as many can't read...

then mum and dad sees this on tv

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYYEZA5Ur3A

and see pound signs...

 

[Andy Monty]

still a teacher and he said he decides by ringing up other teachers and seeing what they reckon

Many of those teachers he will ring are probably on the management team for the school...

 

[scout]

STFU, put your jealousy aside for a few years, get your arse to uni, do a degree for 3 years, do a PGCE for a year, give up your evenings and weekends, then try to educate a bunch of hormonal young people who don't want to be there about stuff they don't care about (of course, I'm talking about secondary school kids here, but much of this applies from primary through to college and beyond).

It looks like someone needs a hug :hug:

 

[dave]

such measures as it is reasonable

clearing a path is reasonable, closing the school is extreme