What Shocked You Today

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What Shocked You Today

It would not surprise me in the slightest if signage in a hospital has more rules than monopoly...
I will tell you now from personal experience that just displaying the NHS logo and the selection of colours you can use in NHS signage has more rules than monopoly and scrabble put together.

Anyone can look this up but one example is that it is “unacceptable” to have the logo over a background such as a photograph that is cluttered, or other colours such as green or red. Then there is the space you have to have around the logo…. Etc.

The NHS like any organisation has a corporate identity that people expect.

Someone might be annoyed at a 6ft blue logo painted on a carpark but the general public would be completely confused at a 6ft logo if it was red and not blue.

So you have build a whole load of new departments and moved all the wards about like most hospitals have in the last 3 years.
You don’t want a theme hospital situation of everyone wandering around the hospital lost and confused, missing appointments and getting angry with staff.

The solution might be some sort of cohesive signage solution. Something designed to get people where they need to go but not cost the earth or waste money on unnecessary signs (signs are really really expensive) you also need to keep to the NHS rules on displaying logos and colour schemes. What the hospital probably needs is someone who can bring all that together, on budget and ok time and ticking all the other boxes.

Hospitals don’t have people like this on staff so they might need to pay an outside (self employed) consultant. Expert firms can get quite expensive but a consultant in any business can be a few hundred pounds a day.

So employing someone to do this job suddenly makes a lot more sense to pay them £300 a day for 3-4 weeks than have them on staff for 12 months a year at £40k a year. When you might only need someone like this every few years…….

Suddenly managers actually make sense.

Also from personal experience there is a lot of waste on the NHS as with every business, but generally managers are needed, it’s managers who make sure you’re not waiting 3 years for an appointment not doctors or nurses. It’s managers who keep the consultants from spending £3,000,000 on a laser that they can use in only 1% of operations or doing a £500 MRI scan on every patient no matter what the problem.

Managers are needed, this applies to every company l, it’s not generally the manager who isn’t needed being the problem but often an under qualified incompetent manger getting a position that’s way out of their depth that causes most issues.
There are many many nurses who get promoted to manager just because of length of service but have zero management experience or skills. Most doctors don’t have the time or inclination to care about anything managers do, they rely on things just being taken care of. The only thing they might manage is junior members of the doctor team
 
Suddenly managers actually make sense.
You don't need to tell me...

Most of the things people think "just happen" or are "common sense" will have a competent manager behind them, be it them getting their pay correctly every month..or not running out of crucial things or that they have a building to work in that is safe, secure and equipped for the job at hand. You need look at the last 3 years of government for what happens when the manager is asleep at the wheel.

Not to say people cannot wheel out "bad manager" stories but you don't notice good management as things just work.

NHS is an organisation of over 1m staff with 67m potential customers the admin involved in something that size is immense as is the scope for cock ups.
 
Wonder where all the monies have gone then…ah yes, the brexiteers that ‘bet on the pound’, the politicians mates who didn’t want to pay the tax they were going to be forced to pay by the EU… brexit was never about taking back control, it was about protecting the interests of the rich with a little bit of xenophobia thrown in for the working class daily mail readers
I can only comment on how joining the European Union affected me. I started a small one man vehicle repair business and within a short while with no advertising, purely word of mouth personal recommendation, I was earning enough to have to charge VAT, whilst being able to easily pay my mortgage, support my wife and five children.
Then along came the ERM fiasco (for those too young to remember look it up, monetry union with the E.U.) interest rates went around 16% for mortgages, many people lost their homes, businesses, etc. Those that didn't lose their homes often ended up with negative equity (they could pay their mortgage for the rest of their lives but would never own them!) The then Government pulled out of the ERM , but by then it was too late.
Many of my customers were small business owners themselves, everyone was struggling to make a living or even survive, as a result I lost 3/4 of my customers.
I was unable to keep my business premises, so I struggled on by working mobile from a van with my few remaining customers, even where it meant things like fitting engines and gearboxes on 3.5 tonne Ford pick ups at the side of the road on my back with rain pouring down etc. on my own, until finally retiring around 66!
By the way I don't think it was "the brexiteers that ‘bet on the pound" it was the Billionaire money speculators like George Soros who didn't give a damm either way who ran what Country just as long as they could take advantage of the system, same as the recent Covid profiteers.
So as far as I personally am concerned you can stick the E.U. where the sun don't shine ;).
 
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Not to say there's no waste etc..but most the things flying about the news about the NHS and many other things bring this to mind.

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Im sure that 95%+ of all people go to work with the aim of doing a great job. Its easy to critisise. Many many years ago I went on a training course called Action Centred Leadership. This was run by The Indistrial Society. It has a simple series of linked messages. All actions can be divided in to the development of Team Task and Individual. At the end of the course they gace us a plastic card with a venn diagram with the three circles on it. In each were 5 actions that work to developing either T T or I. Good management at all levels involves ensuring you act in a balanced manner if you self anaylyse and see you are heavy in one area and light in another some adjustment is required. I used this card nearly every day for over 30 years and found it worked. Years later I added the one liner that Health and Safety are a management consideration equal to all others. Thats a quote from HASAW Act. This also never failed me. If I hadnt thought about health and safety during a week it was time to make time to do so. I personally recomend this approach to everyone in management.
Some enlighhtened souls decided that every employee of the Local Authority I worked for should attend. Bosses were asked what motvated their staff to go to work. Employees were asked what motivated bosses. It transpired that bosses htought motivation was about money and employees though boss motivation was about power and greed. In a surevy the result showed that people work to earn a living but equally important was to gain self respect, self improvement and to do a good job and be recognised for doing so. The improvement in getting rid of barriers, communication, understanding and motivation were tangible in that organisation. In fact I never worked anywhere better in 40 years at work. If you ever hear of this approach or get a chance to read about it I am sure you would gain from it and so would those around you. I felt that this training gave me a different approach to work and an edge in moving on. It aided decisions taking when confusion reigned - as it did 95% of the time= and made it easy to take decisions that worked because they were generally taken with an eye on the elements used.My daughter is a non front line NHS employee and I can see the stress that rules her life and I hope that someone somewhere in the system will impose some joined up thinking in seeing where the complete absence of development of individuals is taking us! I hope you can make a difference in a dumb system. I believe The Indistrial Society dont do this training any more, not sure they still exist. If not its a great shame.
 
I think a good part of the problem with the NHS round our way is that they seem to be continually building houses around town, significantly expanding them and not putting in the resource to support them. Our local hospital has been reducing the bed could over the years due to lack of staff, and it has reached a crunch point where the patients coming through the door do outweigh what can be handled.
Glasgow is similar, they shut a number of hospitals and centralise them all into a few that cant cope (and blamed for killing patients by infection!).

Added to that is the NHS24 / GPs that simply refer many cases to A&E now.

My wife has been a nurse for 30+ years, and now in ICU (for a stress free life :ROFLMAO: , I laugh, but there is a high number dont make it out). Recently she had to go down to A&E to let relatives in since that's the night entrance. She was absolutely shocked by what she saw, beds stacked up side by side along the corridors with patients on them, mattress lying on the floor with other patients, queues of ambulances outside the door that had been waiting more than a full shift to get unloaded (12 hour shifts).

Why aren't these high paid managers shouting about it, and why it's down to the nurses on the ground to call it out?
 
I can only comment on how joining the European Union affected me. I started a small one man vehicle repair business and within a short while with no advertising, purely word of mouth personal recommendation, I was earning enough to have to charge VAT, whilst being able to easily pay my mortgage, support my wife and five children.
Then along came the ERM fiasco (for those too young to remember look it up, monetry union with the E.U.) interest rates went around 16% for mortgages, many people lost their homes, businesses, etc. Those that didn't lose their homes often ended up with negative equity (they could pay their mortgage for the rest of their lives but would never own them!) The then Government pulled out of the ERM , but by then it was too late.
Many of my customers were small business owners themselves, everyone was struggling to make a living or even survive, as a result I lost 3/4 of my customers.
I was unable to keep my business premises, so I struggled on by working mobile from a van with my few remaining customers, even where it meant things like fitting engines and gearboxes on 3.5 tonne Ford pick ups at the side of the road on my back with rain pouring down etc. on my own, until finally retiring around 66!
By the way I don't think it was "the brexiteers that ‘bet on the pound" it was the Billionaire money speculators like George Soros who didn't give a damm either way who ran what Country just as long as they could take advantage of the system, same as the recent Covid profiteers.
So as far as I personally am concerned you can stick the E.U. where the sun don't shine ;).
The decision of ERM was also a way of making money as ‘where the pound was pegged’ was entirely an economic political one…where’s there’s politicians there are lobby groups and friends, plus the innate monied backgrounds of those politicians. I remember my dad bemoaning the fact that he was having to pick up double shifts in order to pay the mortgage
Bloomberg
The Brexit-supporting hedge fund manager Crispin Odey made £220 million and was filmed by a BBC documentary crew saying: “The morning has gold in its mouth.” Mr Farage's director of communications in Brussels, Hermann Kelly, reportedly earned £9,500 by shorting the pound against the dollar on referendum night to double his money after five hours. But questioned about the sequence of events for a new book by Sunday Times political editor Tim Shipman, Mr Farage insisted his premature concession had been the result of genuine pessimism. He laughed off the suggestion it had been part of a cunning ploy to help make a lot of money for those who had shorted the markets in the hope of a Brexit victory…and yet he wouldn’t disclose how much money he made
Soros, undeniably demonised in both Trump and Uk political affiliates, in taking a side in the Brexit debate, for instance, isn’t Soros straying into political ground? Yes and no, he says. “It falls into the category of what I call political philanthropy. Brexit is a process of disintegration that hurts both sides. It hurts Britain more on a pro rata basis and Europe more in absolute terms. Most importantly, European values can be better defended if the two of them are united. My contributions were not used for partisan or electoral purposes. They were used to educate the British public (in unity).”
 
The decision of ERM was also a way of making money as ‘where the pound was pegged’ was entirely an economic political one…where’s there’s politicians there are lobby groups and friends, plus the innate monied backgrounds of those politicians. I remember my dad bemoaning the fact that he was having to pick up double shifts in order to pay the mortgage
Bloomberg
The Brexit-supporting hedge fund manager Crispin Odey made £220 million and was filmed by a BBC documentary crew saying: “The morning has gold in its mouth.” Mr Farage's director of communications in Brussels, Hermann Kelly, reportedly earned £9,500 by shorting the pound against the dollar on referendum night to double his money after five hours. But questioned about the sequence of events for a new book by Sunday Times political editor Tim Shipman, Mr Farage insisted his premature concession had been the result of genuine pessimism. He laughed off the suggestion it had been part of a cunning ploy to help make a lot of money for those who had shorted the markets in the hope of a Brexit victory…and yet he wouldn’t disclose how much money he made
Soros, undeniably demonised in both Trump and Uk political affiliates, in taking a side in the Brexit debate, for instance, isn’t Soros straying into political ground? Yes and no, he says. “It falls into the category of what I call political philanthropy. Brexit is a process of disintegration that hurts both sides. It hurts Britain more on a pro rata basis and Europe more in absolute terms. Most importantly, European values can be better defended if the two of them are united. My contributions were not used for partisan or electoral purposes. They were used to educate the British public (in unity).”
Chicken feed?
Soros.
Black Wednesday is well known as the day that Soros broke the Bank of England and made over $1 billion
 
Chicken feed?
Soros.
Black Wednesday is well known as the day that Soros broke the Bank of England and made over $1 billion
Why was he known for that…because he accurately predicted it, put his money where his mouth is and, yes, profited from it, but to blame the ills of the world on him alone and not the charlatans that were in big banking, and now in government, is ‘bit of a leap’
 
Why was he known for that…because he accurately predicted it, put his money where his mouth is and, yes, profited from it, but to blame the ills of the world on him alone and not the charlatans that were in big banking, and now in government, is ‘bit of a leap’
Soros and his pals effectively "broke the Bank of England" to make billions, putting loads of British businesses in to receivership.
Unless you had a business or mortgage that was directly affected by his actions and other speculators at that time you were not in my shoes, it was way worse than the current situation, which is why personally I will not forget the way it affected my and many other lives in 1992.
The mistake the antibrexiteers made was not waiting a few more years before having the Referendum so us wrinklies will have all died off, leaving the younger generation who didn't experience it to carry on believing in the "sunny uplands" of the E.U. along with all the indoctrination by the E.U. funded BBC and the "liberal left" happily reading all those big starry signs about projects funded by the E.U.
You say yourself your dad had to do double shifts to pay the mortgage, back then my mortgage rate was 16% so I can well understand it!
 
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Soros and his pals effectively "broke the Bank of England" to make billions, putting loads of British businesses in to receivership.
Unless you had a business or mortgage that was directly affected by his actions and other speculators at that time you were not in my shoes, it was way worse than the current situation, which is why personally I will not forget the way it affected my and many other lives in 1992.
The mistake the antibrexiteers made was not waiting a few more years before having the Referendum so us wrinklies will have all died off, leaving the younger generation who didn't experience it to carry on believing in the "sunny uplands" of the E.U. along with all the indoctrination by the E.U. funded BBC and the "liberal left" happily reading all those big starry signs about projects funded by the E.U.
You say yourself your dad had to do double shifts to pay the mortgage, back then my mortgage rate was 16% so I can well understand it!
So, how much are these firms set to make from Boris Johnsons do or die


• approach to Brexit?


From the financial data publicly available, The Times can reveal that currently £4,563,350,000 (£4.6 billion) of aggregate short positions on a 'no deal' Brexit have been taken out by hedge funds that directly or indirectly bankrolled Boris Tohnson's leadership campaign.


Most of these firms also donated to Vote Leave and took out short positions on the EU Referendum result. The ones which didn't typically didn't exist at that time but are invariably connected via directorships to companies that did.


Another €3,711,000,000 (£3.7 billion) of these short positions have been taken out by firms that donated to the Vote Leave campaign, but did not donate directly to the Johnson leadership campaign.


Currently, €8,274,350,000 (€8.3 billion) of aggregate short positions has been taken out by hedge funds connected to the Prime Minister and his Vote Leave campaign, run by his advisor Dominic Cummings, on a 'no deal' Brexit.
All they had to do was convince you that you had an enemy
You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.

~Robert A. Heinlein

We’re never going to agree as we are from wildly different positions, I know you have a deeply held position, one that was excepted by the ‘majority’ and you got your way…but the evidence is clear, for all its faults, the EU was better than the mess we are in now! Go well, just one phrase from Carlin
The Problem isn't a lack of money, food, water or land..

The Problem is that you've given control of these things to a group of greedy psychopaths who care more about maintaining their own power than helping mankind.
 
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So, how much are these firms set to make from Boris Johnsons do or die


• approach to Brexit?


From the financial data publicly available, The Times can reveal that currently £4,563,350,000 (£4.6 billion) of aggregate short positions on a 'no deal' Brexit have been taken out by hedge funds that directly or indirectly bankrolled Boris Tohnson's leadership campaign.


Most of these firms also donated to Vote Leave and took out short positions on the EU Referendum result. The ones which didn't typically didn't exist at that time but are invariably connected via directorships to companies that did.


Another €3,711,000,000 (£3.7 billion) of these short positions have been taken out by firms that donated to the Vote Leave campaign, but did not donate directly to the Johnson leadership campaign.


Currently, €8,274,350,000 (€8.3 billion) of aggregate short positions has been taken out by hedge funds connected to the Prime Minister and his Vote Leave campaign, run by his advisor Dominic Cummings, on a 'no deal' Brexit.
All they had to do was convince you that you had an enemy
You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.

~Robert A. Heinlein

We’re never going to agree as we are from wildly different positions, I know you have a deeply held position, one that was excepted by the ‘majority’ and you got your way…but the evidence is clear, for all its faults, the EU was better than the mess we are in now! Go well
Prior to 1992 ERM, I couldn't give a sh*t about politics, but anything that hits my pocket after working hard I will never forget.
At the end of the day most of them are ar*eholes who will never have to understand the real meaning of having to work for a living.
So we will agree to disagree;)
 
Soros and his pals effectively "broke the Bank of England" to make billions, putting loads of British businesses in to receivership.
Unless you had a business or mortgage that was directly affected by his actions and other speculators at that time you were not in my shoes, it was way worse than the current situation, which is why personally I will not forget the way it affected my and many other lives in 1992.
The mistake the antibrexiteers made was not waiting a few more years before having the Referendum so us wrinklies will have all died off, leaving the younger generation who didn't experience it to carry on believing in the "sunny uplands" of the E.U. along with all the indoctrination by the E.U. funded BBC and the "liberal left" happily reading all those big starry signs about projects funded by the E.U.
You say yourself your dad had to do double shifts to pay the mortgage, back then my mortgage rate was 16% so I can well understand it!
While I dont disagree withyour view of that day, it seemed to me that our government was so hell bent on trying to beat the markets that they were absolutely equally guilty of allowing the massive loss of national wealth, and they never paid for it in any way. Peoiple have kept voting them back.. Dear Ms Truss was another tory who thought she could do the same and look what damage shee did in the shelf llfespan of a lettuce . She wiped a huge chunk off my pension fund for certain with her idiocy.

I had a lot of beefs with the EU (not least the cost of the EU commissions lunches!!!) I certainly feel for what happened to you and many others due to that appalling da, y but things seem to be worse not better since we bailed. There has been so much badness in the world recently its nearly impossible to tell or to see whats causing what anymore. I wanted to remain, but suspect with Putins war raging we may just turn out to be better off outside the club. What surprised me most is that it seems to be the Germans that have been least aggressive with us for leaving. Its also pretty clear we havnt lost anything in distancing ourselves from France. What saddens me is that in my lifetime I have met many europeans of many nationalities and they have all been people of good character and decent families with just the same needs and wants. Its the blasted governments that are no-KIN good. Of all the governments that are no use or ornamen though. t I think ours has bee consistently the worst. There are many things that are needed to get this country going and to build a new relationship with Europe and there is so little action going on its painful.

My daughter has worked in pharmaceutical industry and the NHS since graduating and says in terms of research spending we are heading off a cliff, and that not only that we are likjely to be cut out of massive funding which brings in 10's of billions of money giving us a leading position in this area. If she proves right we really have a lot to think on Things like new drugs that will not be available to us for medical treatments because we are outside the circle.. I am hoping I can see out my time before we finally collapse backinto the bottom of second rank countries. I still hope that we may find new wind. The trouble is we have no obvious leaders and those who stand forward have neither backbone nor moral compass so cant set a direction those of us in the herd can grab and follow. Its celarly a sign of age that is getting grumpy, but give us something to grasp, someone please. The EEC was a good idea, but one who was right was Mrs Thatcher who didnt want a federal europe. I think that was what killed it.

Roll on CHristmas, lets have some nuts!
 
The trouble is we have no obvious leaders and those who stand forward have neither backbone nor moral compass so cant set a direction those of us in the herd can grab and follow.
The trouble is, we seem to have forgotten how to chose someone to vote for. These days its all about how popular someone is rather than how competent a leader they are. We might as well get Simon Cowl to run a Political version of Britain's got talent and we vote someone out each week with a phone in.

We're told Keir Stamer would make a terrible leader would be incompetent, by people who want Boris Johnson back, but Boris Johnson was a terrible Journalist, who wrote car reviews in a lads mag, moved into being a mayor, and showed time and time again that he was nothing more than a clown. but people liked him so he got voted in.....
Doesn't really matter who is PM now because, non of us voted for them.

Now go look up Starmer's background, Barrister, worked pro-bono on a number of high level cases including human rights issues was the director of public prosecutions for years, head of the crown prosecution service, appointed to the queens council in 2002 over a decade before he entered politics....
You could argue he knows a thing or two about the laws of our land, and others, definitely someone I wouldn't have a second thought about if he was in charge because he is not in politics for himself, He has a long history of everything he has done, being done for other people and the good of other people.

People (I believe) often vote conservative because they have an idea of themselves that they are not "working class" and labor is a working class party. They also have this belief that labor is the party for benefits and people who don't want to work, where as the conservatives do everything they can to make people better off, cutting benefits and services and therefore cutting Taxes. All of this is nonsense. A vote should never just be for the popularity of the person.

I swear these days people treat voting like a gamble and will vote for the party they think is going to win just so they don't feel like they lost by voting for the losing party.
 
To use an Americanism..."Least worst" option would be my default position.

You'll never find an actual person with no flaws, no vices, no skeletons in the closet. Especially at this level, to get that high up the political ladder takes a certain mindset and drive which is usually incompatible with being a universally liked..tough decisions need to be made etc and there will always be people on the bad side of those.

Voting for a party that isn't actively attempting to make the rich richer while the poor are using food banks and saying "don't worry once their wallets are full some money might fall out" might be a reasonable choice.

To be fair we probably need proportional representation..that way Boris would only have had the % of the population that voted from him and would have needed support from other parties to get things through. It may have lead to some basic due diligence before making policy decisions.
 
The trouble is, we seem to have forgotten how to chose someone to vote for. These days its all about how popular someone is rather than how competent a leader they are. We might as well get Simon Cowl to run a Political version of Britain's got talent and we vote someone out each week with a phone in.

We're told Keir Stamer would make a terrible leader would be incompetent, by people who want Boris Johnson back, but Boris Johnson was a terrible Journalist, who wrote car reviews in a lads mag, moved into being a mayor, and showed time and time again that he was nothing more than a clown. but people liked him so he got voted in.....
Doesn't really matter who is PM now because, non of us voted for them.

Now go look up Starmer's background, Barrister, worked pro-bono on a number of high level cases including human rights issues was the director of public prosecutions for years, head of the crown prosecution service, appointed to the queens council in 2002 over a decade before he entered politics....
You could argue he knows a thing or two about the laws of our land, and others, definitely someone I wouldn't have a second thought about if he was in charge because he is not in politics for himself, He has a long history of everything he has done, being done for other people and the good of other people.

People (I believe) often vote conservative because they have an idea of themselves that they are not "working class" and labor is a working class party. They also have this belief that labor is the party for benefits and people who don't want to work, where as the conservatives do everything they can to make people better off, cutting benefits and services and therefore cutting Taxes. All of this is nonsense. A vote should never just be for the popularity of the person.

I swear these days people treat voting like a gamble and will vote for the party they think is going to win just so they don't feel like they lost by voting for the losing party.
I partly agree with you, though Starmer I feel held some responsibility as Director of Public Prosecutions over the Saville affair and being like so many MPs from all parties coming from the legal profession, like car salesmen, will say anything to get the result they want;).
The original working class Labour movement held very good principles, but Corbins Islington elite took them a long way from their roots and proved by not listening outside of their inner circle they became unelectable, Starmer was at the centre of that and is now seeking to convince people the opposite.
As you say EEC was OK but they crossed the line with Federalism, forgetting that every Country good or bad values it's own identity, so telling every one they are E.U. Citizens would never wash.
Germany and UK were some of the few Net Contributors to the E.U. coffers and have many similarities with us. Most of the rest will tow the E.U. line as long as money keeps pouring inward to them.
 
I partly agree with you, though Starmer I feel held some responsibility as Director of Public Prosecutions over the Saville affair
You can feel free to look into this further, but that whole argument was a smear campaign by Boris Johnson to try and cover the party gate scandals, even then starmer held his hands up said he should take some responsibility for that and promised child abuse allegations would be handled differently in future.

it was actually a pretty low blow for Boris to make, as it seems these days rather than having any political argument child sex abuse is regularly used as a useful tool to bash the opposition, no matter how tenuous the connection.

@StevenRB45 sums it up…. Least worst option, which in politics these days is the equivalent of “would you like to stick your hands or your face in a pile of s**t.
 
The trouble is, we seem to have forgotten how to chose someone to vote for. These days its all about how popular someone is rather than how competent a leader they are. We might as well get Simon Cowl to run a Political version of Britain's got talent and we vote someone out each week with a phone in.

We're told Keir Stamer would make a terrible leader would be incompetent, by people who want Boris Johnson back, but Boris Johnson was a terrible Journalist, who wrote car reviews in a lads mag, moved into being a mayor, and showed time and time again that he was nothing more than a clown. but people liked him so he got voted in.....
Doesn't really matter who is PM now because, non of us voted for them.

Now go look up Starmer's background, Barrister, worked pro-bono on a number of high level cases including human rights issues was the director of public prosecutions for years, head of the crown prosecution service, appointed to the queens council in 2002 over a decade before he entered politics....
You could argue he knows a thing or two about the laws of our land, and others, definitely someone I wouldn't have a second thought about if he was in charge because he is not in politics for himself, He has a long history of everything he has done, being done for other people and the good of other people.

People (I believe) often vote conservative because they have an idea of themselves that they are not "working class" and labor is a working class party. They also have this belief that labor is the party for benefits and people who don't want to work, where as the conservatives do everything they can to make people better off, cutting benefits and services and therefore cutting Taxes. All of this is nonsense. A vote should never just be for the popularity of the person.

I swear these days people treat voting like a gamble and will vote for the party they think is going to win just so they don't feel like they lost by voting for the losing party.
You make an excellent point. I remember having a smal amount of education on voting at school. Whats needed is more on this subject and encouragement to think about key issues and make an informed choice. I suspect this is something that the our glorious leaders would cut immediately from the curriculum in cost basis!

I rather suspect Keir Starmer would be a good PM and would encourage sensible thinking if he was given a chance. We need the Labour Party to revisit their power structure too to give the any labour governemnt room to govern. We seem to have a total free for all for any idiot in the Tories and rather too much control freakery in Labour. Liberals seem to talk quite a lot of commin snese and tread a centrl pathh but populism seems to rule them out.

One thing is certain though. If there isnt a change in how things are done we face trouble in the future,
 
Mod here! I know this is the Leisure Lounge and currently forum Guidlines/Rules don't ban politics but as we all know politics can be very hot and contoversial subjects. Please try to refrain from mentioning specific politicians/names. Even saying name XYZ was/did good can result in an alternative negative response and the bun fights start. Specific politicians/people are not here to defend or justify themselves. I don't think any of us would like beging talked about behind our backs.
 
Mod here! I know this is the Leisure Lounge and currently forum Guidlines/Rules don't ban politics but as we all know politics can be very hot and contoversial subjects. Please try to refrain from mentioning specific politicians/names. Even saying name XYZ was/did good can result in an alternative negative response and the bun fights start. Specific politicians/people are not here to defend or justify themselves. I don't think any of us would like beging talked about behind our backs.
Punk here 😏 fair enough
 
Punk here 😏 fair enough
Thanks @porta and please you and all be aware I'm not picking/focusing/directing to any individual. If the truth be known I'm possibly guilty of somewhere either on FF or other sites of inadvetantly getting dragged into deeper political/named exchanges. Let us all just think about what we say, where it may lead, etc.
 
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