Technical Wading Depth

[roverp480]

Thanks for the various replies and recommendations. For info. I contacted Fiat who responded to say my question would be passed on for an answer but no reply as yet .
I used to work for Land Rover , now retired, and am well aware of the various limitations to wading , including water being drawn into the engine or gearboxes , Catalysts being damaged due to thermal shock and worst of all water getting into the wiring and eventually the ecu's which can basically scrap a car.
I think I will go with halfway up the wheels (300mm) , just below the door opening, as a max unless something concrete advises different.

 

[Motorcyclist Colin]

I have a Citroen Relay Camper van and a 4x4 Panda, both obviously with handbrakes operating on discs. The Camper, of necessity is parked on a fairly steep drive and the handbrake holds fine and has done so for the last nine years, with no problems. The Panda handbrake needed some adjustment early on in the life of the car, but will hold the car anywhere now.
Even my old 2CV handbrake was on the front discs and the (handbrake) pads were about the size of an old penny, but still held well enough-WHEN ADJUSTED ACCORDING TO THE MANUAL

 

[gar074]

Even my old 2CV handbrake was on the front discs and the (handbrake) pads were about the size of an old penny, but still held well enough-WHEN ADJUSTED ACCORDING TO THE MANUAL

This has just reminded me of the Pink Panther film (Return of? Revenge of?) where Clouseau, attempting to halt his out-of-control 2CV van, yanks on the handbrake and it comes off in his hand. Cue a classic Sellers double-take as he looks with puzzlement at the handbrake and then throws it out of the window, before coming to a sudden aquatic stop. So thanks for innocently inducing a chuckle on a Monday morning!

I miss my 2CV.*

(* but not on damp, drizzly mornings when the wee b*stard would never start!)

 

[MaxHeadroom]

I miss my 2CV.*

(* but not on damp, drizzly mornings when the wee b*stard would never start!)

I miss mine too - Would have another one any day!


Mine too had the dislike of foggy damp days - that was what the cranking handle was for! I later fixed that problem by fitting electronic ignition for a motorcycle.


Until I bought my 2006 SAAB 93 convertible, the 2CV had the best headlights of any car I'd owned!

 

[gar074]

It was that wretched coil that was usually the problem on my 2CV. I must have used up dozens of cans of WD40, sealant and God knows what, trying to keep the damp out of it.

(Apologies to the OP for taking the thread off topic. 2CVs have absolutely unbelievable wading depth!!!)

 

[MaxHeadroom]

Gar I just noticed your 'signature' and assume those are your current cars?
The Talbot-Matra Murena - not the sama as a Matra-Simca I assume?

I recall something which Im sure was a Matra Simca which seemed abandoned on the car-park by the airmen's barrack accomodation at RAF Brawdy in Wales during the early '80s - I think it had three seats in it. Someone at the time told me it was a rust-bucket but back then it couldnt have even been very old!

 

[A3jeroen]

The Matra-Simca was the Bagheera. Talbot (new name for Simca) Murena was the successor.

gr J

 

[gar074]

Yes, the Murena's a very recent addition - my retirement present to myself.

The beautiful, distinctive Matra-Simca Bagheera was notoriously prone to terminal rust in the chassis, while still looking superficially OK due to the fibreglass bodywork. Its successor, the Talbot-Matra Murena, retained the mid-engined, 3-seater configuration, but the chassis was galvanised (the first mass-produced car to benefit from such treatment, I believe), so they are much more tolerant of neglect to their nether regions (apart from the rear trailing arms, which are a weak spot). The Murena was only built from 1981-83 because Renault commandeered the Matra factory to build the Mk 1 Espace, so they are pretty rare nowadays.

Tickled to think that I've now owned two cars that were built in that factory. Of the two, I much prefer the Murena!

(But I doubt it will be up to much in the wading stakes!)

 

[MaxHeadroom]

Fab - You clearly like your cars!

I would love to see a Talbot-Matra Murena - how many were built v survived? And have any Bagheeras survived?

 

[gar074]

Just over 10,000 Murena's were built, and 250 or so were imported into the UK (they were never officially sold here). There are only a handful left on the road in the UK now, although there are known to be several more on a SORN. Mine was imported from the Netherlands (where there is a big following) last year.

Bagheeras were built in greater numbers (just under 48,000), but they are even rarer due to the dreaded tin worm. The idiots at Top Gear wrecked one in Borneo last year. Sacrilege!

Prices were low until a few years ago, but they're slowly creeping up. They fetch a lot more on the continent than over here, possibly because they're all LHD.

 

[MaxHeadroom]

Fascinating information Gar, thank you for that. It's interesting to know how many survive particularly when it's a car that had some catastrophic and inherrent problem at the outset.


I'm the owner of an 80 year old vehicle (MG J2) and astonished that so many of them have survived - particularly as it had a notoriously fragile engine (two bearing crank ) derived from the (prewar) Morris Minor.

Autocar magazine had a factory prepared vehicle to test and got 80 mph out of it. Either they were unaware that the car had been factory prepared or simply failed to mention this in the magazine article!

As a consequence of that article every J2 owner tried to achieve similar performance and cranks were getting snapped like carrots.

The factory quickly cobbled up some bearing modification believing it was a fault of the bearings but it didn't fix the problem, nevertheless out of the 2083 built (sold for £199.10s during 1932/33) well over half of them have survived!

Apart from the war years (probably), mine was on the road from 1932 until the early 1960s albeit with a Ford sidevalve engine in it fitted in the mid 1950s.

 

[gar074]

Oh, the J2 is so cute! That long bonnet, and the cut-away doors! A true classic. Is yours on the road?

 

[MaxHeadroom]

Not yet Gar.

It's a VERY long story, and as we're off-topic here already, I'll talk about it freely somewhere else. Although I have to say these old cars can wade in surprisingly deep water!


Today I went to pick it up from Shobdon in Herefordshire where I took it to a trimmer to make seats for it. The engine is almost done and I was hoping to have popped by at the workshop where the engine is to drop it into the chassis but the guy is on holiday. (the car in the background is a 1928 Sunbeam)

 

[gar074]

Now that looks like a real labour of love! What a fantastic project. Hats off to you!

It's the first car I've seen where the footwell is accessible from under the bonnet!

Oh, and great wading depth

 

[MaxHeadroom]

Thanks Gar.

I've just located the onboard video footage of the same car going through the flooded section. It was filmed during the 2017 Kimber Classic trial. Its not great quality but you'll get the gist of what these trials are all about; hill-starts/stops braking tests; all sorts of things - these 80 year old cars take a lot of punishment...


The water bit is about 12:25

Nailsworth Ladder - my car did this hill in 1934

The photo is of my J2 during the 1934 London - Gloucester trial found in Motorsport Magazine's report. The photo caption gave the name of the driver (N H Cole), and I have since traced his son and we've become firm friends. He believes he still has his father's badges that graced the front of the car in that photo but has yet to locate them - it's be quite something to reunite them with the car after 80 years!
His mother also drove the car very successfully in a loacal Cheltenham trial in 1935.

Colour photo is of me at the same spot - Iles Lane near Stroud

 

[roverp480]

Had a phone call from Fiat on my voicemail saying I was right that there is nothing in the handbook and are investigating further to find an answer.

 

[SteakAndAle]

Just to chime in: was out in Essex today for a muddy walk. Had thought about doing some byways too, but decided against after heavy rain yesterday. However, we discovered plenty of flooding on the main roads around Ongar.

After an (amateur!) assessment of the situation and watching a few others, we decided to go for it - water was below the door shuts and the Panda performed well, but I probably wouldn't push it much further than that. However, it was very satisfying leaving all the posh sports cars behind us and passing numerous dead BMWs at the side of the road!

Grateful to the previous owner for the new set of CrossClimate tires he'd put on her...

 

[roverp480]

Last week I had a call from customer services to say they had not been able to find an answer and couldn't take it any further but suggested as a Fiat dealer garage has more access to Fiat Technical than they do and I should speak to them, which to be honest sounds rather bizarre . I used to work for Land Rover and Customer services would forward technical matters to the relevant technical staff for reply. I have now asked local dealer for there response !
Dealer has come back with a wading depth from the technical data of 779 mm which has been mentioned in other links. That's just above the top of the wheel arch but I don't think I will be trying it though.

 

[Panda IIs]

I have now asked local dealer for there response!
Dealer has come back with a wading depth from the technical data of 779 mm which has been mentioned in other links. That's just above the top of the wheel arch but I don't think I will be trying it though.

I think if the door seals are good then I would expect to be floating in that depth (although that's probably assumed to be created by a forward movement and subsequent bow wave?)!

On the door seals thing, I haven't checked, but when I installed the tow bar I noted the "breather vent" for the boot and that is probably lower than the referenced 779mm. I'm pretty sure that vent would not resist incoming water of any volume?

The caveat "don't try this at home" might be appropriate?

 

[R1NGA]

I think if the door seals are good then I would expect to be floating in that depth (although that's probably assumed to be created by a forward movement and subsequent bow wave?)!

On the door seals thing, I haven't checked, but when I installed the tow bar I noted the "breather vent" for the boot and that is probably lower than the referenced 779mm. I'm pretty sure that vent would not resist incoming water of any volume?

The caveat "don't try this at home" might be appropriate?

There isn't a cats' chance in hell that a Panda will wade through 78cm of water! It would undoubtedly start to float, suck in water and hydraulic itself in about 20 seconds. I will put good money on 78cm being the height of the air intake, nothing more, which means that whilst theoretically it might be out of the water for longer than other cars in the range, a decent bow-wave in anything more than about 40cm you risk destroying the car for good.

Bear in mind that a G-Wagon can only wade officially wade though 70cm - the latest RR about 90cm maybe - and both those cars have massive-volume air-path fabrications to allow them to dip under for a few seconds if they needed to.

That Fiat cannot even answer that is quite sad really.....