Venturing into unknown territory.

[mafiltenborg]

Right then.

I'm a life long Citroën owner. So was my dad.
However, motorbikes have become an interest to me now, and to fund that interest, car costs must be reduced.
Alas, as my latest banger - a C4 Grand Picasso with +400k Kilometers on the clock - can no longer pass MoT, it yields its place to a Panda 69 bhp model. The Panda is cheaper in taxes, offers better fuel economy and uses cheaper spareparts.

Bought for little money, looking tired and worn-out. Smokers car, of course; stinking and dirty. But nearly rust free and with a mere 250k kilometers on the odo.

That was three weeks ago. Now the car looks well-maintained, the cabin is clean and doesn't stink (major job!), filters and oil have been changed, minor repairs have been made and a new DAB+/handsfree phone/Bluetooth stereo + door-tweeters have been installed.

I kinda like it. It's simple and no-nonsense. And it fulfills the three demands I have; It keeps me out of the rain, it is cheap to own and it can tow my trailer.

Let's see where this takes me. Can a basic Fiat save me money, deal with the transportation task and maybe even put a smile on my face?

 

[rmjbn1]

Hi and welcome Fellow Citroënist here! I also blame my father - I think he's secretly disappointed that I've gone for something as uncomplicated as a FIAT.

But I love my Panda, it puts a smile on my face bouncing around the country lanes. Not much to go wrong, only a few cheap consumables, and they don't even seem to rust. Apart from the rear axle. And the oil sump pan. And the coolant pipe in front of the engine.

Oh and keep your duckbills (scuttle drains below the windscreen) clear.

Now, can you fit a motorbike in one?

 

[steveras57]

Hi and welcome -what bikes ya got then? our 500 shares its space with a1976 moto-guzzi California, a 1973 Harley sportster, and a 1969 Suzuki t 500 twin! we kinda treat the 500 as an Honorary bike!

 

[mafiltenborg]

...and they don't even seem to rust. Apart from the rear axle. And the oil sump pan. And the coolant pipe in front of the engine.

Oh and keep your duckbills (scuttle drains below the windscreen) clear.

Now, can you fit a motorbike in one?

I've noticed the coolant pipe yes.
Oil sump pan? Rear axle? Okay - will look after signs of rust.

Currently hunting down the cause of an oil leak. Thought it was the cracked breather hose behind the throttle body. But replacing it did not stop the drops of oil hanging down from under the pan. Any well-known sources of oil leaks I should be aware of?

Fit a motorbike in a Panda? Maybe. I have a Dax '73 on veteran plates; it folds down quite well. Not that this was anything I'd been thinking about doing. My bikes are meant to move on their own with me in the saddle, enjoying the thing motorcycles do best; roam free.
Cars are for transport. Motorbikes are for travel. Read on about my view on that issue here.

 

[rmjbn1]

drops of oil hanging down from under the pan. Any well-known sources of oil leaks I should be aware of?

I've had three on mine:
O ring behind coil mounting plate (only found when I took it off to change the thermostat)
Crankshaft main rear seal
Gearbox input shaft seal

Also the sump pan goes porous as it rusts and can weep oil

Gear selector can also leak.

Does it have a strong smell of gear oil?

Might need to clean it up and see where it comes back.

 

[mafiltenborg]

Hi and welcome -what bikes ya got then? our 500 shares its space with a1976 moto-guzzi California, a 1973 Harley sportster, and a 1969 Suzuki t 500 twin! we kinda treat the 500 as an Honorary bike!

It all started with me getting a proper shed. In it I put my trusty old Honda Dax moped from back when I was a youngster. The shed offered me the possibility to tinker and thus revive the Dax. However, life really *is* too short for mopeds, so the thought of converting it to a small motorbike took hold. And so it became necessary with a license for motorbikes. Restoration began and so did driving school. At driving school I ended up riding another Honda; a CB500. And soon I bought one for myself. the Dax became a tinkering project and the CB500 became the tool that had me traveling. All over Europe - some 80.000 kilometers. France, Italy, Romania, Germany, England and a few other countries. Mostly long-haul and solo.
And then our company was closed down. With 20 years of seniority, that triggered a compensation for me.
Enter Blackbird. Perfect for doing away with boring Autobahn.
And then some more touring. The bird is a different animal altogether, and it's not all 'better' compared to the CB500. But despite it being somewhat heavy and less fuel efficient, it has now taken over the role of daily transportation when weather permits it. And it's my favourite means of traveling.

The Panda is unlikely to become a 'means of traveling' for me. Not to say I won't enjoy poking it on the twisties, as its gokart-ish behaviour and lively little engine lends itself to being poked at

 

[mafiltenborg]

I've had three on mine:
O ring behind coil mounting plate (only found when I took it off to change the thermostat)
Crankshaft main rear seal
Gearbox input shaft seal

Also the sump pan goes porous as it rusts and can weep oil

Gear selector can also leak.

Does it have a strong smell of gear oil?

Might need to clean it up and see where it comes back.

Good pointers. Thankyousomuch - that'll have me looking in all the right places!
No, the oil seems too dark for being gear oil. But replacing gear oil is on the agenda (which will make it 'known history', much preferred to 'huh? - dunno'), and I'll definitely remember your input.

 

[steveras57]

It all started with me getting a proper shed. In it I put my trusty old Honda Dax moped from back when I was a youngster. The shed offered me the possibility to tinker and thus revive the Dax. However, life really *is* too short for mopeds, so the thought of converting it to a small motorbike took hold. And so it became necessary with a license for motorbikes. Restoration began and so did driving school. At driving school I ended up riding another Honda; a CB500. And soon I bought one for myself. the Dax became a tinkering project and the CB500 became the tool that had me traveling. All over Europe - some 80.000 kilometers. France, Italy, Romania, Germany, England and a few other countries. Mostly long-haul and solo.
And then our company was closed down. With 20 years of seniority, that triggered a compensation for me.
Enter Blackbird. Perfect for doing away with boring Autobahn.
And then some more touring. The bird is a different animal altogether, and it's not all 'better' compared to the CB500. But despite it being somewhat heavy and less fuel efficient, it has now taken over the role of daily transportation when weather permits it. And it's my favourite means of traveling.

The Panda is unlikely to become a 'means of traveling' for me. Not to say I won't enjoy poking it on the twisties, as its gokart-ish behaviour and lively little engine lends itself to being poked at

I was gonna say the 500,s handle like a dodgem but i will refine that to wheelbarrow based on there ability to virtually bounce into the stratosphere if they hit a pot-hole!
Honda make a good bike and a blackbirds a tool for sure but as you can see from my stable i like a bike i can give a good cussing now and then!

 

[mafiltenborg]

Honda make a good bike and a blackbirds a tool for sure but as you can see from my stable i like a bike i can give a good cussing now and then!

Hehe. One would think that with me driving Citroen for nearly 40 years - and the proper citroens with hydraulics, that is, I might be inclined to the cussing thing as well.
But no. I like my vehicles to 'just work' so that I can choose when to tinker for fun. Being on top of things from the get-go helps a lot with that too. Meaning acquisitions - like the Panda - tend to go through a phase where people look at me and think I'm slightly mad, throwing ressources at 'that old banger there'. Followed by a period of time where things 'just work'.
The thing is; I'm not much for parting with my hard-earned money and pricing in my country (I live in Denmark) is really not in my favour.
Example: A - fairly modest - BMW 3-series stationcar will set you back 720.000 kr (that's 81.000 british pounds) - excluding delivery fees.

In contrast, the Panda set me back something like 1500 quid. So, putting my back into it during revival of a used car is highly profitable work.
This is also why you find me here; workshop/garage labour prices are eyewateringly high. Meaning DIY is 'paid' at a rate of something like 100 quid/hour.

 

[steveras57]

Hehe. One would think that with me driving Citroen for nearly 40 years - and the proper citroens with hydraulics, that is, I might be inclined to the cussing thing as well.
But no. I like my vehicles to 'just work' so that I can choose when to tinker for fun. Being on top of things from the get-go helps a lot with that too. Meaning acquisitions - like the Panda - tend to go through a phase where people look at me and think I'm slightly mad, throwing ressources at 'that old banger there'. Followed by a period of time where things 'just work'.
The thing is; I'm not much for parting with my hard-earned money and pricing in my country (I live in Denmark) is really not in my favour.
Example: A - fairly modest - BMW 3-series stationcar will set you back 720.000 kr (that's 81.000 british pounds) - excluding delivery fees.
View attachment 454500
In contrast, the Panda set me back something like 1500 quid. So, putting my back into it during revival of a used car is highly profitable work.
This is also why you find me here; workshop/garage labour prices are eyewateringly high. Meaning DIY is 'paid' at a rate of something like 100 quid/hour.

I have NEVER bought a new car! to much of a loss to have the privilege ? of being the new owner and dealing with all the warranty claimsso understand your philosophy well enough!

 

[mafiltenborg]

I have NEVER bought a new car! to much of a loss to have the privilege ? of being the new owner and dealing with all the warranty claimsso understand your philosophy well enough!

Which brings us back to the Panda; well-proven technology made for people on a budget who require reliable transportation. A modern-day take on the Citroën 2CV.
New-tech-customers are by definition at risk of encountering flawed solutions. Their choice.

However, when manufacturers after the initial shakedown choose to continue selling known-bad technology (eg the whole cambelt-in-oil debacle) to unsuspecting end-users, thus catapulting them into a world of pain, said manufacturers will end up in my little mental black book as "untrustworthy unempatic in-it-for-the-money bastards to be avoided".
I'm wondering why such things happen. Are the spreadsheet-jockeys in corporate management really so shortsighted, they can't see it'll hurt their reputation and long-term survival selling crap?

Yet another reason for acquiring proven tech.

BTW: I've just seen this on Youtube: The FIRE engine is being discontinued:

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/3mbUYKH2mn3Kk355/

 

[steveras57]

Which brings us back to the Panda; well-proven technology made for people on a budget who require reliable transportation. A modern-day take on the Citroën 2CV.
New-tech-customers are by definition at risk of encountering flawed solutions. Their choice.

However, when manufacturers after the initial shakedown choose to continue selling known-bad technology (eg the whole cambelt-in-oil debacle) to unsuspecting end-users, thus catapulting them into a world of pain, said manufacturers will end up in my little mental black book as "untrustworthy unempatic in-it-for-the-money bastards to be avoided".
I'm wondering why such things happen. Are the spreadsheet-jockeys in corporate management really so shortsighted, they can't see it'll hurt their reputation and long-term survival selling crap?

Yet another reason for acquiring proven tech.

BTW: I've just seen this on Youtube: The FIRE engine is being discontinued:

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/3mbUYKH2mn3Kk355/

WE(they) are deffo heading in the wrong direction especially with this hypocritical eco electric save the planet bu**it!

 

[mafiltenborg]

WE(they) are deffo heading in the wrong direction especially with this hypocritical eco electric save the planet bu**it!

I'm with you as long as we're talking opportunistic snake-oil peddlers preying on people using FUD and statistics (there are three forms of lie: Black, white and statistic).
However I'm all for saving the planet using whatever means that might take. Be that electric vehicles (or hydrogen or...), tax-based political pressure or something entirely different.
Stick and carrot. I'm no expert, but to reduce the emissions that seem to be at the root of climate change, we must reduce fossil fuel spendage. Pushing for increased popularity of thick sweaters in cold regions won't cut it, so looking at transportation fuel usage makes sense.
Abolishing unneeded passenger air transport (cheap charter holidays goodbye) and taxing the living daylights out of cruise-ship/private-jet fuel to curb the emissions from those are to me low-hanging fruits.
Next would be to regulate noncommercial land-based transportation. Carrot: Free parking for energy-efficient vehicles in congested areas. Subsidise bicycle-based commuters. Stick: Tax the living daylights out of gas-guzzlers and stop subsidising those who commute using petrol. Dunno about your place, but around here, people who commute far get a refund to cover their expenses. The argument seems to be that it is to keep the workforce mobile to provide flexibility for the production apparatus. But why? If we could all live and work locally, fuel spendage would plummet - which is exactly what is needed. Working locally creates goods locally, reducing the need for commercial transport to provide stuff to local consumers, further reducing emissions.
Ideally, Joe Sixpack now works at the local factory, commutes by bicycle or public transport for max 15 minutes daily and spends his earnings buying food and commodities all produced within 100km from where he lives. While wearing a thick sweater when it's cold.
That's the best plan I've managed to come up with. Improvement suggestions welcome.

I'd love to keep on doing what we do today. But unfortunately there is no Planet B. And no room for coal rollers.

 

[steveras57]

I'm with you as long as we're talking opportunistic snake-oil peddlers preying on people using FUD and statistics (there are three forms of lie: Black, white and statistic).
However I'm all for saving the planet using whatever means that might take. Be that electric vehicles (or hydrogen or...), tax-based political pressure or something entirely different.
Stick and carrot. I'm no expert, but to reduce the emissions that seem to be at the root of climate change, we must reduce fossil fuel spendage. Pushing for increased popularity of thick sweaters in cold regions won't cut it, so looking at transportation fuel usage makes sense.
Abolishing unneeded passenger air transport (cheap charter holidays goodbye) and taxing the living daylights out of cruise-ship/private-jet fuel to curb the emissions from those are to me low-hanging fruits.
Next would be to regulate noncommercial land-based transportation. Carrot: Free parking for energy-efficient vehicles in congested areas. Subsidise bicycle-based commuters. Stick: Tax the living daylights out of gas-guzzlers and stop subsidising those who commute using petrol. Dunno about your place, but around here, people who commute far get a refund to cover their expenses. The argument seems to be that it is to keep the workforce mobile to provide flexibility for the production apparatus. But why? If we could all live and work locally, fuel spendage would plummet - which is exactly what is needed. Working locally creates goods locally, reducing the need for commercial transport to provide stuff to local consumers, further reducing emissions.
Ideally, Joe Sixpack now works at the local factory, commutes by bicycle or public transport for max 15 minutes daily and spends his earnings buying food and commodities all produced within 100km from where he lives. While wearing a thick sweater when it's cold.
That's the best plan I've managed to come up with. Improvement suggestions welcome.

I'd love to keep on doing what we do today. But unfortunately there is no Planet B. And no room for coal rollers.

Thanos was right!

 

[mafiltenborg]

Thanos was right!

Being a non-native english-speaker I had to look that one up

The issue is similar to the one from the movie Inferno.

No easy solutions in sight. But at least our Pandas are in the good end of 'bad'.

 

[rmjbn1]

Feels like there was a brief period when we had engines that were reasonably efficient and would go on forever with basic servicing. I think the FIRE was one of the best.

Until manufacturers realised they could make much more money from clutch and belt changes. And we'd all trade in for a new model as a result.

If this really was done to improve emissions and fuel efficiency I'm not convinced. I've tried a 1.0 Firefly 500 ahem "hybrid" ahem and found it thirstier than my 20 year old Panda.

I like an electric motor, quiet, light, powerful and reliable. But I don't want a literal tonne of batteries. So I'm waiting until there's a convincing alternative.

 

[rmjbn1]

Joe Sixpack now works at the local factory, commutes by bicycle or public transport for max 15 minutes daily and spends his earnings buying food and commodities all produced within 100km from where he lives.

I agree, I really liked the proposals for the '15 minute city', which I think is basically just returning to normal patterns of living before we all thought it'd be great if we sat in cars for hours every week.

A simple guide to 15-minute cities

The 15-minute city concept has repeatedly made the news this year. Here, we explain the key details of the urbanism concept and why it has become so controversial.

www.dezeen.com

 

[mafiltenborg]

I agree, I really liked the proposals for the '15 minute city', which I think is basically just returning to normal patterns of living before we all thought it'd be great if we sat in cars for hours every week.

A simple guide to 15-minute cities

The 15-minute city concept has repeatedly made the news this year. Here, we explain the key details of the urbanism concept and why it has become so controversial.

www.dezeen.com

Wow. I never knew there was such a thing. Cool! I know the Copenhagen council is encouraging inhabitants to go by bicycle and deter the motorists with difficult parking and fees - but taking it further and organizing urban areas into self-contained 'lumps' is so simple and efficient it's almost fun. Why didn't I think of that?

Returning to the subject of combating congestion and pollution in general, I recall a danish concept callet Rapud Urban Flexible (RUF - danish term meaning 'quickly') coined back in the 80'es that was meant to vastly increase vehicle density, reduce drivers' need to 'work the car' and save fuel doing so. Obviously, the concept soared like a lead balloon.
https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_Urban_Flexible
The video: Click here

Now, we are going to get autonomous vehicles. Nice for letting commuters use their time doing anything else but 'working the car'. Next, how do we come up with a way to increase density and cut fuel spendage? Apart from all of us driving Pandas, of course

I think this one is fun. Just add the 'autonomous'-bit and we're there. But I'm no Ford F350-craving american, so for those people we'll have to come up with a different solution.
Collapsible microcar concept

On a personal level, I would like this:

• For commute or going to the high street/pub: Autonomous micro-frugal transport cubicle. A stereo with proper grunt would be nice; I like to listen to music.
• For saturday afternoon in the sun: Big, floaty 'sled'. Ideally a Citroen CX powered by electric engine to get rid of the noise. Magic carpet ride.
• For travel: A capable motorbike. Capable enough to go far, nimble enough to be practical. A cheap CB500 is surprisingly well-suited for this purpose; I have a knee-scraping experience on the romanian road named Transfagarasan in memory to vouch for that. I must have been mad at the time...

 

[mafiltenborg]

And the coolant pipe in front of the engine.

I've now been looking at ePer for that part - and not sure what to look for. This is as close as I get:

WATER PUMP AND LINES - FIAT PANDA MY 2011 (2010-2011) | FIAT ePER - Online spare parts catalogue

eper.fiatforum.com

Am I correct in thinking there are a lot different options to choose among? I'll now have to go and take pictures of said coolant pipe / thingamajig to be able to recognize the right bit, because mine looks awfully rusty and will likely need replacing soon.

 

[mafiltenborg]

I've now been looking at ePer for that part - and not sure what to look for. This is as close as I get:

WATER PUMP AND LINES - FIAT PANDA MY 2011 (2010-2011) | FIAT ePER - Online spare parts catalogue

eper.fiatforum.com

Am I correct in thinking there are a lot different options to choose among? I'll now have to go and take pictures of said coolant pipe / thingamajig to be able to recognize the right bit, because mine looks awfully rusty and will likely need replacing soon.

Bloody 'ell! I've just entered my vehicle in this site's "Garage" complete with VIN and all - and voila; ePer magically knows about all the right parts.
Very impressed!