Technical Twin Air - Timing Chain and Cover Guide

[Wasted Spark]

I have another thread running on a DMF change on our 2016 4x4 TA Cross. That job has grown arms and legs as I've noticed little bits I'd like to address along the way. I'm not in a hurry and though it sounds dramatic but I'm so close to just taking the engine out to put the gearbox back on. The front of the car is entirely removed and the only thing connecting the engine to anything else currently is the AC compressor, heater hoses, a few vac lines, fuel hoses and electrical connectors. So I'm thinking I might as well just take it out to make mating up the gearbox on my own, hopefully much easier and tackle some other jobs while I'm there.

Anyway... As with all the best scope creep jobs, I'm thinking I might do the timing chain and tensioner and reseal the cover. I have an oil leak anyway and it might well be from there and there does not seem like a better time to sort that than with the engine entirely out of the car. I could swear I watched a youtube video a few weeks ago that showed that whole job in good detail but I cannot for the life of me find it now.

Does anyone have a good link to a guide on this, written or video, I don't mind. I guess I'm particularly interested in the timing side of things and how to lock it off or realign it. But I'd also like to seal the sealing bolt torqueing sequences for the sump, cover and cam cover etc.

 

[euroben]

I have another thread running on a DMF change on our 2016 4x4 TA Cross. That job has grown arms and legs as I've noticed little bits I'd like to address along the way. I'm not in a hurry and though it sounds dramatic but I'm so close to just taking the engine out to put the gearbox back on. The front of the car is entirely removed and the only thing connecting the engine to anything else currently is the AC compressor, heater hoses, a few vac lines, fuel hoses and electrical connectors. So I'm thinking I might as well just take it out to make mating up the gearbox on my own, hopefully much easier and tackle some other jobs while I'm there.

Anyway... As with all the best scope creep jobs, I'm thinking I might do the timing chain and tensioner and reseal the cover. I have an oil leak anyway and it might well be from there and there does not seem like a better time to sort that than with the engine entirely out of the car. I could swear I watched a youtube video a few weeks ago that showed that whole job in good detail but I cannot for the life of me find it now.

Does anyone have a good link to a guide on this, written or video, I don't mind. I guess I'm particularly interested in the timing side of things and how to lock it off or realign it. But I'd also like to seal the sealing bolt torqueing sequences for the sump, cover and cam cover etc.

You are a braver guy than me!

 

[Panda IIs]

Does anyone have a good link to a guide on this, written or video, I don't mind. I guess I'm particularly interested in the timing side of things and how to lock it off or realign it. But I'd also like to seal the sealing bolt torqueing sequences for the sump, cover and cam cover etc.

Was it this video?

It's a hard watch as it appears to have been overdubbed and the commentary is out of sync with the pointing etc but it seems to show some potential pitfalls - I didn't have the patience to watch it through. There was a useful tip about left hand thread crank bolt plus note the crank pully I think is not keyed so you need to time it up (lock the flywheel and pin the pulley) as I think there's a hall effect position sensor on the pulley. Somewhere on this forum someone found this out the hard way if I remember correctly. There's another video by a guy that's swapping a TA engine in a 500 and shows the locking tool for the flywheel, titled something like "did I buy the right replacement engine for my 500" or similar

 

[Panda IIs]

Was it this video?

It's a hard watch as it appears to have been overdubbed and the commentary is out of sync with the pointing etc but it seems to show some potential pitfalls - I didn't have the patience to watch it through. There was a useful tip about left hand thread crank bolt plus note the crank pully I think is not keyed so you need to time it up (lock the flywheel and pin the pulley) as I think there's a hall effect position sensor on the pulley. Somewhere on this forum someone found this out the hard way if I remember correctly. There's another video by a guy that's swapping a TA engine in a 500 and shows the locking tool for the flywheel, titled something like "did I buy the right replacement engine for my 500" or similar

Or this ? I haven't watched this one at all!

 

[Wasted Spark]

You are a braver guy than me!

No going back now. The engine is out!

 

[Wasted Spark]

Or this ? I haven't watched this one at all!

Really appreciate those links.

Engine is now out but the down pipe is still connected so I need to tackle that as the sump will need to come off. The rest doesn't look too bad.... Famous last words I know!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Really appreciate those links.

Engine is now out but the down pipe is still connected so I need to tackle that as the sump will need to come off. The rest doesn't look too bad.... Famous last words I know!

Fingers toes and every other appendage crossed for you - If I was religious I'd say a prayer too.

 

[Wasted Spark]

Well, we're definitely doing the timing chain now!

Realised there was absolutely no need to remove the sump. Don't know why I was thinking that.

I haven't actually ordered the chain kit yet so I'll have a few days to clean everything up ready for this.

To be honest, now that I'm in this far, I wish I'd just taken the engine out straight away to do the DMF and clutch. Everything has been so much easier with the engine out. Fitting the gearbox back onto the engine was a doddle and all the fiddly stuff around the back of the engine like the starter and alternator have been miles easier too. Amazing what a difference being able to see things makes!

The replacement part list is long on this little project!

Dual Mass Fly Wheel
Clutch
Throw out Bearing
Slave Cylinder
Engine Mount
Gearbox mount x2
AC condenser
2x Lower Wishbones
2X font drop links
Front Discs
Front Pads
Water Pump
Timing Chain + Guides + Tensioner
All Exhaust mounts
Valve Cover Gasket

 

[euroben]

Well, we're definitely doing the timing chain now!

Realised there was absolutely no need to remove the sump. Don't know why I was thinking that.

View attachment 475074

I haven't actually ordered the chain kit yet so I'll have a few days to clean everything up ready for this.

To be honest, now that I'm in this far, I wish I'd just taken the engine out straight away to do the DMF and clutch. Everything has been so much easier with the engine out. Fitting the gearbox back onto the engine was a doddle and all the fiddly stuff around the back of the engine like the starter and alternator have been miles easier too. Amazing what a difference being able to see things makes!

The replacement part list is long on this little project!

Dual Mass Fly Wheel
Clutch
Throw out Bearing
Slave Cylinder
Engine Mount
Gearbox mount x2
AC condenser
2x Lower Wishbones
2X font drop links
Front Discs
Front Pads
Water Pump
Timing Chain + Guides + Tensioner
All Exhaust mounts
Valve Cover Gasket

I’m not really sure what I’m looking at because I have never done a timing chain but does it look ok to you? Is there any slack in it or signs it’s stretched? How many miles are you on?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Just out of interest, when you get the new chain, can you hang them both from the same finger, or nail if you prefer, and let them hang down so you can observe the lengths of the two chains beside each other. If worn the old chain will be longer. Another way we used to do a rough check was to put both chains, on their side, on a flat surface and weight one end down with something solid and heavy. Then lift the other end and compare the amount of bend. This relates to wear in the individual links. The amount of increase in length or amount of increase in bend directly relates to wear. There should be very little difference, if any, in length but different makes may have slight differences in degree of bend. Does the kit include new crankshaft and camshaft sprocket wheels. If the old chain is worn it's pin centre distances on the chain will be greater and this wears the sprockets. Changing just the chain and leaving it running on the old sprockets are a recipe for rapid wear of the new chain.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I’m not really sure what I’m looking at because I have never done a timing chain but does it look ok to you? Is there any slack in it or signs it’s stretched? How many miles are you on?

A giveaway on how much a chain is worn before you start stripping down is to listen for chain rattle on a cold start. However, looking at your picture and looking at the camshaft sprocket, then look at the chain run to the left and down a wee bit. Can you see an aluminium casting, held on with two bolts, with a smallish cylindrical plunger sticking out of it and connected to the black plastic chain guide. This guide is pivoted at it's bottom end and free at the top where this hydraulic tensioner is. When the engine is running engine oil pressure pushes the wee piston out and keeps the guide pressed against the chain so ensuring it doesn't flap about. The more worn the chain is the further the piston will protrude from it's casting. I don't know this engine so I don't know if yours looks normal or worn. If I had to guess at it I'd say it doesn't look too bad though. Another indicator can be if the guides - black on the left and white on the right - are deeply grooved by the chain running against them.

 

[Wasted Spark]

I’m not really sure what I’m looking at because I have never done a timing chain but does it look ok to you? Is there any slack in it or signs it’s stretched? How many miles are you on?

I don't think there is anything to see. My post probable implied there was something wrong but I was really just showing that I'd stripped the engine down in prep. My car has done 110k miles. I don't have any record of the chain ever being touched but also nothing to suggest there was anything wrong with it.

The only reason I'm doing it is because with the engine out, it's not a huge job at all and the parts cost is not high either. About £120. Jobs like this are all labour so if I had to do this at a later date I'd either be in for the long haul or paying a fair bit. That said, my actual costs are a bit higher anyway as I'll do the water pump at the same time. Again would be rude not to when it's right there.

As @Pugglt Auld Jock says, I'll compare the length of the old chain to new once parts are here.

 

[Wasted Spark]

Just out of interest, when you get the new chain, can you hang them both from the same finger, or nail if you prefer, and let them hang down so you can observe the lengths of the two chains beside each other. If worn the old chain will be longer. Another way we used to do a rough check was to put both chains, on their side, on a flat surface and weight one end down with something solid and heavy. Then lift the other end and compare the amount of bend. This relates to wear in the individual links. The amount of increase in length or amount of increase in bend directly relates to wear. There should be very little difference, if any, in length but different makes may have slight differences in degree of bend. Does the kit include new crankshaft and camshaft sprocket wheels. If the old chain is worn it's pin centre distances on the chain will be greater and this wears the sprockets. Changing just the chain and leaving it running on the old sprockets are a recipe for rapid wear of the new chain.

The new kit comes with crank sprocket but not cam sprocket. I'm fine with that.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

The new kit comes with crank sprocket but not cam sprocket. I'm fine with that.

Aye, if you've got to do just the one then the smaller crank sprocket's the one. They may have found that the cam sprocket is not prone to wear.

 

[Wasted Spark]

Well, the custard tornado lives again! This has taken a while for various reasons but mainly because I haven't rushed it and have taken my time to do a lot of future proofing while in there. I did make some mistakes though!

I'm mainly updating this for anyone further down the line that reads this as I always find it helpful when I'm in the same position.

My thoughts on this and the DMF replacement are mainly that everything became a lot easier once the engine was out the car. It obviously depends a lot on the space and tools available but taking the engine out of these is actually quite straight forward and on the 4x4 model in particular refitting the gearbox in site would be a major challenge as there isn't much room to play with even with the sub frame removed. It of course makes the timing chain far easier too. I think cleaning down the sealing face in situ would be a real challenge.

The timing chain is an interesting one! The aux belt pulley is not keyed to the shaft but must be aligned properly with the crank in order to trigger the crank sensor correctly. There is a round slot on the chain housing and pulley to align with a dowel tool. More importantly, the crank chain drive sprocket is also not keyed and it and the pulley are both driven using tension only form the single left handed thread (also important to know!) bolt that holds them in place. So all I would say here, is lock both the cam shaft and the crank shaft in their reference positions before removing the pulley bolt. A £20 chain tool kit from ebay will sort this. There is only one slot on the flywheel that the tool can go in and one position on the cam shaft so it's idiot proof if you lock them off and leave them locked throughout.

My chain and guides that came off looked brand new! I was going to show a comparison image of chain but the old one was so close to the new that you'd barely see anything. I'd say maybe 5mm difference on overall length at the very most. Anyway, peace of mind for a long time now with new chain, guides and tensioner. I replaced the water pump too. I gave all of the surfaces a really thorough clean and resealed with Wynns RTV.

Top tip that I learnt the hard way. Replace the water pump inlet/cover. I didn't and after I'd put the car back together, it was weeping. Ordinarily not a major problem but... the cover can only be removed by also removing the pulley. That means locking the engine off again and locking off the aux belt tensioner etc... Lesson well and truly learnt!

Great to have it back together now. It's running nicely and sounds smoother (relatively speaking, it's still a twin air!).

Total list of stuff changed on this 'little' job

DMF
Clutch
Clutch Release Bearing
Clutch Slave Cylinder
AC Condenser
Front Discs
Front Pads
Front Control Arms
Front ARB Links
3x Engine/Gearbox Mounts
4x Exhaust Mounts
Timing Chain + Drive Sprocket, Guides and Tensioner
Valve Cover Gasket
Water Pump
Water Pump Cover
Many many Fasteners!
Gearbox Oil
Brake/Clutch Fluid
Engine Oil
Oil Filter + sump Plug
Rear Diff Fluid
Many ml's of Bilt Hamber UB!

Phew!!

 

[Wasted Spark]

One last pic just to show you what I meant about cleaning the crank case sealing face.

When you compare that image to the image above you can see how much goop has to be removed. I'd not have enjoyed doing that with the engine still in the car. Also on this point, I should mention that I deliberately left the sump full of the old engine oil. Reason being because although I did my best to keep any of the sold crud out for there when cleaning it off, I knew some would get in and I wanted the old oil in there to flush it out.

I should also have mentioned my very long list of parts changed, I also did the crank shaft pulley seal. That came with the chain kit. Old one was a bit stubborn to get out but it's pretty easy to replace generally.

 

[Wasted Spark]

Hmmm, not quite out the woods yet. I have an oil leak on the rear of the engine. It looks like it's coming down the middle of the block. It would be a huge coincidence if this wasn't related to something that I've disturbed so I would say it can only be one of a few things.

Sump gasket though that was undisturbed in the area the oil is and it looks wet above that so I'm more or less certain it's not that.

Chain cover is an obvious candidate but the oil seems way too far inboard for that and it all looks dry further out.

Cam sensor or vac pump assy. This is on the other end of the engine at the front but I can sort of see how oil could follow the the casting shape around so I can't rule it out. It's just a metal gasket on that part and I did not replace it.

Cam/Valve Cover gasket. This is probably my prime suspect. I replaced it with a brand new one when I put everything back together and was careful to add sealant into the corners. I also replaced the spark plug well gasket inboard. One thing that I'm curious about is that the valve cover gasket set came with a small o-ring and I never worked out what it was for. Any ideas?

Annoyingly, if I have to take the valve cover back off, the inlet manifold has to come off and that is not an easy job unless one is prepared to chop the supporting leg off. Which I'm not!

It's an annoying leak this one. I drove the car after I'd put it all back together and it drove nicely. Put it back in the garage and noticed a decent sized oil patch the next day. I cleaned all the oil off the engine that I could and ran it for about 20 mins with the front in the air and not a drop came out. Couldn't see any oil anywhere. Came back the next day and there was another puddle! I guess that implies at least that it's maybe taking a longish route down the engine which might tally with something around the cam cover or cam sensor.