Technical Stiff clutch pedal.

[Mobiasstrip]

Hi, After long periods of stop start driving my 2007 Panda clutch pedal starts to get stiffer and harder to smoothly depress. This can make the car judder on pulling away and easily stall. Stopping the car and letting it rest for 20 min and the problems gone. Any ideas?
My local garage and a main Fiat dealer both can't suggest what problem is and only offer diagnostics based on stripping down, and possible gearbox removal which may be v expensive. Both say it does not sound like the clutch itself.
Is this a problem anyone else has seen?
Is there a schematic drawing of the Panda clutch I can look at?
Many thanks in advance.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Our 2010 1.2 Panda had a stiff clutch pedal and initially, only very occasionally, made a loud squeak as the pedal was depressed. As time went by the squeak became more frequent until it happened almost every time you pressed the pedal and by process of elimination (using my listening tube whilst Mrs J operated the pedal) The noise seemed to be coming from the slave cylinder. Changed the slave cylinder and the squeak disappeared entirely and the heavy pedal was greatly improved. Some time later the clutch had to be renewed simply because it was worn out and the pedal became lighter again.

So, because it's a relatively cheap thing to try it might be worth putting a new slave cylinder on and seeing if it sorts it? - The clutch hydraulics are known to sometimes give trouble on our left hand drive cars and the slave seems to be the weakest link? Most of the rest of the production - ie right hand drive - have cable clutches I believe?

OOPs, just thought, Is your's a diesel? I don't have much experience of the diesels but I believe their slave is of the concentric type which necessitates removal of the gearbox for access. The petrol engine's slave is mounted on the top of the bell housing so easily accessed.

If you do get to the stage of removing the gearbox it's probably worth doing a clutch anyway as much of the cost is in the labour. and get them to very carefully check the gearbox input shaft oil seal and bearing. even the smallest hint of an oil leak or lift or roughness in the bearing should not be ignored as it indicates imminent failure of these components which will then let oil escape and contaminate and ruin your new clutch.

 

[mjc506]

Worth flushing and bleeding the clutch fluid too...

 

[koalar]

come on folks the original poster complains of judder

two garages say its either clutch or gearbox and the gearbox has to come off to be sure

Which is correct. Lateral movement of the input shaft or clutch (there no spigot bearing in this design)

How many times you ask the question. Unfortunately there isnt going to be a cheaper answer

With the engine switched off. You can put your finger through the inspection hole at the top of the bellhousing, under the coolant pipe and feel the inside. If its covered in oil it will be gearbox and if you continue to drive it the repair will became more expensive.

good photo posted here https://www.fiatforum.com/500/486803-clutch-gearbox.html?p=4592037


Another clue is when its failing to listen to any change in noise when in neutral with the clutch pedal up and down

 

[koalar]

Is there a schematic drawing of the Panda clutch I can look at?
Many thanks in advance.

http://eper.fiatforum.com/eper/navi...INT_MODE=0&EPER_CAT=SP&WINDOW_ID=1&GUI_LANG=3

http://eper.fiatforum.com/eper/navi...INT_MODE=0&EPER_CAT=SP&GUI_LANG=3&WINDOW_ID=1

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

come on folks the original poster complains of judder

two garages say its either clutch or gearbox and the gearbox has to come off to be sure

Which is correct. Lateral movement of the input shaft or clutch (there no spigot bearing in this design)

How many times you ask the question. Unfortunately there isnt going to be a cheaper answer

With the engine switched off. You can put your finger through the inspection hole at the top of the bellhousing, under the coolant pipe and feel the inside. If its covered in oil it will be gearbox and if you continue to drive it the repair will became more expensive.

good photo posted here https://www.fiatforum.com/500/486803-clutch-gearbox.html?p=4592037


Another clue is when its failing to listen to any change in noise when in neutral with the clutch pedal up and down

Yup, I hold my hands up in surrender to you. Unfortunately for the OP you are almost certainly right but the OP seems to be saying it only develops after long periods of stop start driving. Stop the car and let it rest for 20 minutes and it returns to normal. Arguably not typical of clutch wear? Our clutch slave squeaked much more loudly when the engine was fully up to operating temp. So I was just thinking it's likely a new slave cylinder (maybe master too knowing the weakness of this system) is going to be needed anyway so, if it's a petrol of course - do we know yet what engine this car has? - putting a slave on it might work but probably, at worst, wouldn't be wasted? You'r "oily finger" test would be a very good idea, you might even be able to smell it and tell if it's engine or gearbox oil?

 

[The Panda Nut]

Sound like contamination or dust caused by flywheel roughness, exacerbated by lots of traffic use?? I hate juddery clutches too.

 

[koalar]

pedal / hydraulics

slip, squeak, stiff, disengagement problems but as far as I know never judder

Of cause I could be wrong

I didn't want to spread doom and gloom but my input bearing got worse as it warms up. Just because that was my symptoms doesn't mean it couldn't be the clutch centre thats worn loose

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Please do let us know how it all pans out Mobiasstrip won't you?

 

[Mobiasstrip]

Thanks very much for taking time to respond.
I tried to explain but maybe did not do it well.
99% of the time the clutch works faultlessly. No stiffness. Smooth engagement. No judder.
Very occasionally (twice in 12 months) after 90 mins plus of continuous stop start traffic jam driving the clutch pedal starts to become stiff to depress and even if teh pedal is evenly released the clutch plates engage quickly, making car jerky & potentially causing the engine to stall. On one occasion the clutch did not engage at all when I let the pedal out leaving me without drive. Switching off and resting the car for 20 minutes and all symptoms are gone and clutch works smoothly and without a problem.
Feels like despite the pedal being released evenly the linkage/mechanism disengaging the clutch does not follow and sticks/move in jumps. Hence my request for schematic (Thank you) to try and assess what part sticking/failing could cause such symptoms. Its a 100HP with 30k miles.

 

[timmycm850]

On our 2005 1.2 petrol 95k miles, we were getting sqweaky clutch and light sticking of the pedal with a little stiffness.

We found that the pedal pivot under the dash was dry, this would lock up more if sat untraffuc with pressure on the pedal for long periods.

I would also guess with a 2010 vehicle it likely that the clutch fluid has never been changed and in my experience this normally makes the clutches a bit stiffer and in extreme cases the pedal gets stuck down.

I would go under the dash and look at the pedal box pivots and lube them up with some white lithium spray( make sure you wipe the pedal rubbers clean afterwards). If this helps then next I would bleed the clutch system through but be careful not to overvtighten the bleed screw as it can damage the slave cylinder case.
Keep us posted
Tim

 

[koalar]

Hi, After long periods of stop start driving my 2007 Panda clutch pedal starts to get stiffer and harder to smoothly depress. This can make the car judder on pulling away and easily stall. Stopping the car and letting it rest for 20 min and the problems gone. Any ideas?
My local garage and a main Fiat dealer both can't suggest what problem is and only offer diagnostics based on stripping down, and possible gearbox removal which may be v expensive. Both say it does not sound like the clutch itself.
Is this a problem anyone else has seen?
Is there a schematic drawing of the Panda clutch I can look at?
Many thanks in advance.

Thanks very much for taking time to respond.
I tried to explain but maybe did not do it well.
99% of the time the clutch works faultlessly. No stiffness. Smooth engagement. No judder.
Very occasionally (twice in 12 months) after 90 mins plus of continuous stop start traffic jam driving the clutch pedal starts to become stiff to depress and even if teh pedal is evenly released the clutch plates engage quickly, making car jerky & potentially causing the engine to stall. On one occasion the clutch did not engage at all when I let the pedal out leaving me without drive. Switching off and resting the car for 20 minutes and all symptoms are gone and clutch works smoothly and without a problem.
Feels like despite the pedal being released evenly the linkage/mechanism disengaging the clutch does not follow and sticks/move in jumps. Hence my request for schematic (Thank you) to try and assess what part sticking/failing could cause such symptoms. Its a 100HP with 30k miles.

30K 17 years less than 2k a year and fails ever 6 months or so

clutch pedal not coming up smoothly, slow and sticking is likely to be the master cylinder ?

is this what we are talking about ?

 

[RalphM]

Just to confuse things a little more, check if your car as a clutch slave cylinder
on top of the gearbox if so it will have a rubber seal were the rod comes out
to the clutch operating arm if you get some Red Rubber Grease ease that seal
off along the rod and put some of the grease into the open end of the slave
cylinder, see if that helps, don't use anything other than the correct grease
intended for rubber.
If it helps it may save a lot of dismantling, if not at least your only a fiver or
so down.
You can do it with the front of the car on ramps or raised and secured from
under the front without pulling bits off.

 

[DaveMcT]

My clutch slave cylinder was in a horrible state but there was no fluid leaking. The master cylinder looked pristine but was sucking in air through the seals.

If the clutch is misbehaving, check for leaks at the slave then bleed the hydraulics. If the clutch improves but goes bad again you will need a new master cylinder. I fitted a metal one for about £50 though you can pay silly money for a pre-filled cylinder reservoir and hose.

If the clutch is heavy at the bottom of travel and wont release properly, it's likely you need a new clutch. By all means, bleed the hydraulics but it probably wont solve it.

If it's juddering, the cause is likely to be oil usually from the gearbox due to worn input bearings and seal but the engine crank seal can also leak. You will need a new clutch and the gearbox bearings will need to be replaced. At least the latter is not a hard job.

If the clutch is old, its wise to replace the master and slave as costs are not silly. Just shop carefully. Parts for 500, Ford Ka and Panda all fit.

 

[koalar]

My clutch slave cylinder was in a horrible state but there was no fluid leaking. The master cylinder looked pristine but was sucking in air through the seals.

If the clutch is misbehaving, check for leaks at the slave then bleed the hydraulics. If the clutch improves but goes bad again you will need a new master cylinder. I fitted a metal one for about £50 though you can pay silly money for a pre-filled cylinder reservoir and hose.

If the clutch is heavy at the bottom of travel and wont release properly, it's likely you need a new clutch. By all means, bleed the hydraulics but it probably wont solve it.

If it's juddering, the cause is likely to be oil usually from the gearbox due to worn input bearings and seal but the engine crank seal can also leak. You will need a new clutch and the gearbox bearings will need to be replaced. At least the latter is not a hard job.

If the clutch is old, its wise to replace the master and slave as costs are not silly. Just shop carefully. Parts for 500, Ford Ka and Panda all fit.

you can disregard all the posts on clutch judder. Including my own



It was just an unfortunate use off the word judder in the First Post. As its describes a particular fault which the original poster doesn't have. They have a jerky pedal instead. Which only happens every 6 months or so. Which the explained in the 10th post

 

[portland_bill]

The master and slave cylinders on 1.1, 1.2 & 1.4 are the same. They are a plastic body, which when it wears becomes sticky and stiff. This causes the squeaking that many have experienced, and can cause the pedal to stick, (quite exciting in the middle of a busy roundabout).
Replacement of the slave cylinder may effect a cure, but ideally both should be replaced.

These can be expensive, especially the master cylinder. The Panda one is supplied complete with reservoir and pipework, but is actually the same cylinder as the 500 (got a 500 one on mine, thank you), which comes as just the cylinder. Have a good look around, any dealer website, eBay, etc, for the best price. As far as I know there's only one manufacturer.

 

[koalar]

The master and slave cylinders on 1.1, 1.2 & 1.4 are the same. They are a plastic body, which when it wears becomes sticky and stiff. This causes the squeaking that many have experienced, and can cause the pedal to stick, (quite exciting in the middle of a busy roundabout).
Replacement of the slave cylinder may effect a cure, but ideally both should be replaced.

These can be expensive, especially the master cylinder. The Panda one is supplied complete with reservoir and pipework, but is actually the same cylinder as the 500 (got a 500 one on mine, thank you), which comes as just the cylinder. Have a good look around, any dealer website, eBay, etc, for the best price. As far as I know there's only one manufacturer.

thats how I see it


going to be hard to diagnose which I prefer to do as it only fails every 6 months or so.


Fairly common for the clutch pedal to stick down due to hydraulics. I have never known the slave to stick the pedal down. Not to say its not possible but everyone I have seen or on here has been the master.

 

[DaveMcT]

I put one of these on my wife's 1.2 Dynamic. She still has the original slave cylinder. 500, Panda and Ford Ka have the same parts.

Cast metal clutch master cylinder
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274622395588?hash=item3ff0c534c4:g:6AAAAOSwdHlf4jSU

Certainly a far better cost than this
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265244895466?epid=1125270542&hash=item3dc1d3e8ea:g:rpAAAOSwpItfKYBL

 

[DaveMcT]

To add - My wife's clutch creaks when you push the pedal down, though the action and power control are fine. I stripped and cleaned the slave, but it made no difference to the noise. I assume it's the pivot pin causing the creak. It's not a big deal and will get sorted when the clutch is replaced.

 

[Aosta]

Thanks very much for taking time to respond.
I tried to explain but maybe did not do it well.
99% of the time the clutch works faultlessly. No stiffness. Smooth engagement. No judder.
Very occasionally (twice in 12 months) after 90 mins plus of continuous stop start traffic jam driving the clutch pedal starts to become stiff to depress and even if teh pedal is evenly released the clutch plates engage quickly, making car jerky & potentially causing the engine to stall. On one occasion the clutch did not engage at all when I let the pedal out leaving me without drive. Switching off and resting the car for 20 minutes and all symptoms are gone and clutch works smoothly and without a problem.
Feels like despite the pedal being released evenly the linkage/mechanism disengaging the clutch does not follow and sticks/move in jumps. Hence my request for schematic (Thank you) to try and assess what part sticking/failing could cause such symptoms. Its a 100HP with 30k miles.

I've had the same though more frequent on my 2011 panda. Happens more frequently in warmer weather. Took it to a garage who couldn't diagnose for certain without taking the whole thing apart but they thought it was the slave cylinder. Have had it three years and just ignored it so far...