Technical Starting problems - Cabrio 1.6

[chesh]

Hi all
Since I had the car, starting is weird.
When cold after a long rest, like in the morning when I start the car it starts ok after 1-2 seconds.

After a few drives when I turn off the car and going back to start after a few min, starting takes too long. like I need to hold the starter for 3-4 seconds.
Sometimes there is a grinding noise coming from it, but after the next try it starts ok.

Someone told me that it's normal that the starting is long, because the fuel pump is not working at switch and making fuel pressure unlike the other models and only starts to work when I start the car.
Is it? he offered me to connect the fuel pump relay after a switch and not after start but I don't think I want a bypass.

 

[blu73]

i'm pretty sure the 90 engine does prime the fuel pump on the ignition and not only when cranking over, a GT does and thats the same engine family - sounds like whoever told you that thinks it has a mechanical fuel pump rather than an electric pump...

Your pump could be getting tired if its the original, and as such is ok when cold but once warm from running not so efficient?

Could be starter, as above, ok when cold but heat makes it not spin as freely, does it turn over nice and quick? and when it takes longer to start does it spin the same speed as when its cold.

Could be poor compression that is made worse by heat.

Could be injector(s) getting slightly stuck and letting fuel into cylinder(s) after you have been on a drive and there is still pressure in the fuel system - this pressure would dissipate and any fuel evaporate if the car was left to properly cool.

When did it last have new plugs and leads?? Have you checked condition of the plugs recently?

 

[chesh]

Hi
I've installed everything new. fuel pump, HT leads, spark plugs.
Compression is good, 160 for 3 CY except one that is 150.

Spark plugs also look ok:

Even before I changed the fuel pump, I never heard it buzz at ignition like my other 75SX punto.
I think I read it somewhere that it's not supposed to work and build pressure on the GM ECU. I'll search for a link.

Starter runs fine and quick, no stucks. is spins the same speed when cold.

Another thing I noticed is that the EVAP (Canister) is not working and stuck close. the 2PIN connector to it has 12V but the valve won't open.
When I give it straight 12V from the battery, it opens and I hear a click.
However, EML light isn't on.

 

[chesh]

I have a drawing of the electrical system of the Punto 90/ELX in hebrew and it says fuel pump relay is not supposed to work at Ignition ON, only when start.

 

[blu73]

I think I read it somewhere that it's not supposed to work and build pressure on the GM ECU. I'll search for a link.

That maybe true, i have never had one.. But even if it is true it doesn't explain why it starts faster when cold. I must admit though if it was me, so long as it actuall always fires up i wouldn't be that worried about it to be honest.

 

[chesh]

Yeah I guess I'll leave it like that, spent a lot of money on it lately

 

[blu73]

aye, come back to it if it starts getting worse

 

[flisko]

Hi all
Since I had the car, starting is weird.
When cold after a long rest, like in the morning when I start the car it starts ok after 1-2 seconds.

After a few drives when I turn off the car and going back to start after a few min, starting takes too long. like I need to hold the starter for 3-4 seconds.
Sometimes there is a grinding noise coming from it, but after the next try it starts ok.

Someone told me that it's normal that the starting is long, because the fuel pump is not working at switch and making fuel pressure unlike the other models and only starts to work when I start the car.
Is it? he offered me to connect the fuel pump relay after a switch and not after start but I don't think I want a bypass.

quite interesting, i got almost same problem on 1.1, but mine doesnt like to start while cranking for first time on cold car, it starts instantly second time, when car is warmer it starts faster from first crank, that never bothered me tho, but just for fun i changed cranksensor, ht leads and coil packs from my donor car, but its same, only thing i didnt change are spark plugs and starter motor

i always wondered is it better to leave car cranking longer- like 3 sec or stop cranking after 2 sec and try again second time when you know it will start for sure?

 

[fingers99]

In the first case, I'd suspect the coolant temperature sensor.

In the second, well, maybe.

 

[chesh]

I was wrong, after a long rest, it takes too long to start too.
Few seconds after the car is running, starting is ok.

[ame]http://youtu.be/dO7SV_Khb_Q[/ame]

Most of the time it takes long.

 

[blu73]

yeah that don't sound right at all on the first attempt..... has it been compression tested recently?

 

[chesh]

Yes

CY1: 160
CY2: 160
CY3: 150
CY4: 160

Car runs smooth and fine, acceleration is very good.

 

[flisko]

maybe this was the reason car was starting longer every first time?

 

[blu73]

they don't look bad at all to me, nice light grey colour - that is how they should look.....

here, do some reading
http://ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/faqs/faqread.asp

 

[flisko]

mhm i thought they are bad for sure as i was watching some pictures of bad spark plugs looks like its normal for ngk, also first spark plug from left if you are looking at engine bay was a little oily while rest were normal, i wonder what that means?

 

[blu73]

I'd be more worried that you only have 3 instead of 4 *jokes*

When you say oily... how do you mean, oily where? Pic?

 

[flisko]

eh i didnt make picture

maybe similar to this in the middle

what is interesting is that on the donor car first spark plug was oily too while the rest were normal

 

[flisko]

better pic, just zoom in

 

[renaultvation]

In one of your earlier posts you mention that you changed the spark plugs, but although a good colour, the plugs in your photos don't look very new. It also looks like the electrodes are fairly worn which would increase the gap and lead to poor starting. Have you checked the gap?

 

[blu73]

I am assuming you put new plugs back in?? Does it run better, start better?

On another note which i have just noticed...... Them spark plugs you have photographed are BCPR6E but NGK recommends BCPR7E for the 1.6 engine.

http://www.ngkpartfinder.co.uk/car_commercial_extra.php?id=11597