Technical Starting issue

[Ferniferous]

There are occasionally horror stories on here.

For example the garage pull apart the gearbox and then say its going to cost £2000. The poor person then goes "oh ****" i can't afford that, give the car back, so they say "OK, but we're not putting the gearbox back in unless you pay us £1500 for our labour".

To prevent this don't let them take the gearbox apart without a lot of thought, and probably post back here if they say anything along these lines.

Oh gosh, that's awful!
He does seem like a decent guy and he explained everything and showed me on a gearbox he had on the bench. I guess he can charge what he wants seeing as he's the only person in the area who knows these dualogic gearboxes. Fiat would charge more, I'm sure of it.

 

[koalar]

The display is on it's way out as well becuase now and again when i indicated right, the engine and abs light flash

Sounds like the common fault, not cheap £150-250 for a repaired dash and 1 hour labour and software alignment, seems to be about the going rate

 

[Ferniferous]

Sounds like the common fault, not cheap £150-250 for a repaired dash and 1 hour labour and software alignment, seems to be about the going rate

Yea, that's what i found too. So, I'll just try and sell it before it's too noticeable.

 

[jrkitching]

I have a bad feeling about this.

The OP started out by describing a fault with the car's ability to select gears, which suggests a dualogic problem. Now the OP is talking about a leak in the gearbox; I'm now not sure if it's leaking gearbox oil or selespeed fluid? I'm also not sure exactly what seal the garage is proposing to replace? Something in the actuator, or something in the gearbox? Add to this a seemingly exorbitant quote for some sort of suspension work (it's not clear if we're taking track rod end or lower wishbone, but whatever, £360 is way over the top), plus the cluster display fault as well...

and it'll fail it's MOT

If it's due an MOT soon, there could be further work needed that we don't know about yet.

This sounds to me like a car that's about to become a money pit, at least for someone who is dependent on a garage for any work that needs doing.

Like others have said, I can see a lot of ways this can go wrong, and once the garage has started work, they will hold all the cards. Once it's dismantled, they could tell you that the cost of fixing it is more than its value and 'generously' offer to accept the car in payment for the work they've already done.

Oh right, seems like i am being over charged then, but no one else will touch it so, i haven't got much choice

You have another choice; you can always sell the car as it is. That may be your best option financially at this point.

 

[koalar]

Earlier I was on a fishing exercise

To see if the £360 was just for the suspension arm

Which has been confirmed to be just the rear bush

As @jrkitching points out the quote doesn't fit the work involved, so alarm bells are ringing

I be dubious about the seal on the gearbox

 

[AnthonyH]

It is human nature and perfectly sensible to be thrifty, to repair items we own, and only replace them when absolutely necessary.

It is also human nature to think better the devil you know, a car with known problems is better than another you don't.

This doesn't work well with cars of a certain age, because they reach a tipping point where repair bills outnumber the value of the car. The car could easily need new struts, brakes, exhaust and more in the next couple of years.

 

[Ferniferous]

I have a bad feeling about this.

The OP started out by describing a fault with the car's ability to select gears, which suggests a dualogic problem. Now the OP is talking about a leak in the gearbox; I'm now not sure if it's leaking gearbox oil or selespeed fluid? I'm also not sure exactly what seal the garage is proposing to replace? Something in the actuator, or something in the gearbox? Add to this a seemingly exorbitant quote for some sort of suspension work (it's not clear if we're taking track rod end or lower wishbone, but whatever, £360 is way over the top), plus the cluster display fault as well...

Hey
So, just to clarify in case I've been misunderstood, the leaky gearbox is causing it to lose pressure when left standing for 8 hours or more and then it's struggling to find N when i got to start it.
Also, i believe it's the gearbox oil but i have marked the attched photo in red, that is the oil he was referring to and the level the oil is at.
In the green i have circled the arear where he believes one of two seals may need replacing as the oil is leaking down the rod below.

And, I'm not planning on getting the wishbone bush or cluster fixed, I'm gonna try and sell it first.

 

[Ferniferous]

It is human nature and perfectly sensible to be thrifty, to repair items we own, and only replace them when absolutely necessary.

It is also human nature to think better the devil you know, a car with known problems is better than another you don't.

This doesn't work well with cars of a certain age, because they reach a tipping point where repair bills outnumber the value of the car. The car could easily need new struts, brakes, exhaust and more in the next couple of years.

Yea, i know what you're saying. Puts me in a tricky situation, becuase i can't really afford a car much newer than what i have. I think i need to get the minimum amount of work done, sell it privately and hope i have better luck with the next one.

 

[AnthonyH]

Yea, i know what you're saying. Puts me in a tricky situation, becuase i can't really afford a car much newer than what i have. I think i need to get the minimum amount of work done, sell it privately and hope i have better luck with the next one.

You can consider part exchanging the vehicle for a newer one. In that case you don't need the repair and could tell the dealer about the problem.

If you go ahead with the repair then there's no gurantee that'll fix the problem, but I hope it does.

 

[Ferniferous]

You can consider part exchanging the vehicle for a newer one. In that case you don't need the repair and could tell the dealer about the problem.

If you go ahead with the repair then there's no gurantee that'll fix the problem, but I hope it does.

Unfortunately, a dealer will only give me me half of what i can get privately, which means i definitely can't afford another car. Second-hand cars from dealers seem to be a minimum of £6000 these days and a dealer only offered me £3000 for mine.

 

[jrkitching]

i have marked the attched photo in red, that is the oil he was referring to and the level the oil is at.

Thanks, that clarifies what's wrong and what the garage is proposing to do. The part you've indicated is the actuator, not the gearbox itself - that's a completely separate unit.

It would appear that the garage is proposing to replace one obviously faulty seal, top up the selespeed fluid and reset the fault codes. With luck, this might restore normal operation of the transmission for a short while; long enough for you to sell the car. It also suggests the garage does at least have some idea of what they're doing.

The collective experience of this forum is that this kind of repair won't give a long term fix; that would need a reconditioned actuator to be fitted, which would likely cost somewhere in the region of £1600-£2000. Add to that the suspension and dashboard faults, and you're looking at a minimum of £2500 to put this car into good order, and that's assuming an MOT doesn't throw up any further issues.

Second-hand cars from dealers seem to be a minimum of £6000 these days and a dealer only offered me £3000 for mine

The car market has gone crazy, ultimately driven by the shortage and high cost of new small petrol cars, but that's a separate discussion. Just bear in mind that selling a used car privately may not be as easy as you think; the prices you see advertised are generally completely different from the prices cars actually end up being sold for.

I think i need to get the minimum amount of work done, sell it privately

So you're basically going to try to pass the problem on to another unsuspecting person.

I hope for you that the person you buy your next car from hasn't done the same thing.

Sorry if this appears blunt, but I feel it needs to be said.

I appreciate that things may be difficult for you, but the person you sell it to might be in a worse position.

 

[koalar]

The oil level should be here in yellow once the system has been fitted to the car and the doors been opened to prime the system

It's a sealed system

Generally small amounts lost past the selector seals drain back into the reservoir so the amount is always the same

Generally once the the level starts to go down a full rebuild will be required, read expensive

I suspect from your symptoms the oil is coming out of a actuator and going over the neutral sensor

I don't think it will be a quick easy fix

But I am not there and it's only my best guess

You could just top it up to the yellow line with the correct oil and see if normal operation is restored, before changing the seal marked in green, if it doesn't work, then changing it will make no difference

 

[Zardo]

You could go to an official fiat dealership and ask them to top of the selespeed actuator fluid. That way you're sure to get the correct fluid.

Drive around the block for 5 minutes and have them take it on a lift afterwards in order to check for leaks without removing mechanical parts. If they find leaks, you could ask them to make an estimate for the needed repairs. It's always a good thing to get a second offer.

That way, they can also point out if there's more stuff which needs to be fixed for an upcoming MOT.

 

[Ferniferous]

Thanks, that clarifies what's wrong and what the garage is proposing to do. The part you've indicated is the actuator, not the gearbox itself - that's a completely separate unit.

It would appear that the garage is proposing to replace one obviously faulty seal, top up the selespeed fluid and reset the fault codes. With luck, this might restore normal operation of the transmission for a short while; long enough for you to sell the car. It also suggests the garage does at least have some idea of what they're doing.

The collective experience of this forum is that this kind of repair won't give a long term fix; that would need a reconditioned actuator to be fitted, which would likely cost somewhere in the region of £1600-£2000. Add to that the suspension and dashboard faults, and you're looking at a minimum of £2500 to put this car into good order, and that's assuming an MOT doesn't throw up any further issues.


The car market has gone crazy, ultimately driven by the shortage and high cost of new small petrol cars, but that's a separate discussion. Just bear in mind that selling a used car privately may not be as easy as you think; the prices you see advertised are generally completely different from the prices cars actually end up being sold for.



So you're basically going to try to pass the problem on to another unsuspecting person.

I hope for you that the person you buy your next car from hasn't done the same thing.

Sorry if this appears blunt, but I feel it needs to be said.

I appreciate that things may be difficult for you, but the person you sell it to might be in a worse position.

Ah, i didn't realise that it was a temporary fix, that's annoying but useful to know.

Thanks for the heads up about selling privately.

So, it's not something i want to do or feel good about but I'm just feeling a bit stuck, even more so now that i know the seal isn't a permenant fix and is going to cost even more. Maybe i can find an alternative solution.

 

[Ferniferous]

You could go to an official fiat dealership and ask them to top of the selespeed actuator fluid. That way you're sure to get the correct fluid.

Drive around the block for 5 minutes and have them take it on a lift afterwards in order to check for leaks without removing mechanical parts. If they find leaks, you could ask them to make an estimate for the needed repairs. It's always a good thing to get a second offer.

That way, they can also point out if there's more stuff which needs to be fixed for an upcoming MOT.

Trouble is, they wanted to charge £150 per hour just to look at it ...

 

[Ferniferous]

The oil level should be here in yellow once the system has been fitted to the car and the doors been opened to prime the system

View attachment 458333

It's a sealed system

Generally small amounts lost past the selector seals drain back into the reservoir so the amount is always the same

Generally once the the level starts to go down a full rebuild will be required, read expensive

I suspect from your symptoms the oil is coming out of a actuator and going over the neutral sensor

I don't think it will be a quick easy fix

But I am not there and it's only my best guess

You could just top it up to the yellow line with the correct oil and see if normal operation is restored, before changing the seal marked in green, if it doesn't work, then changing it will make no difference

Oh, i see...might be an idea. I guess then we'd know if it was a bigger problem.
The fluid must be leaking from somewhere though otherwise the rod going down the side wouldn't be all wet

 

[Zardo]

Trouble is, they wanted to charge £150 per hour just to look at it ...

That's crazy. In Switzerland, for the "easier" to check problems, taking the vehicle on the lift to have a quick look (of less than 5 minutes) is usually free, if nothing needs to be removed.

However, as modern cars have an engine bay protection unterneath fixed by 6 to 8 screws which need to be removed and refitted to have a good look, that actually might trigger costs as they do more than "just look".

Still, they should not need more than 20 min to fill up the fluid, take the car on the lift, remove the undercover, take a quick look and refit the cover. The fluid is expensive, though.

 

[Ferniferous]

Earlier I was on a fishing exercise

To see if the £360 was just for the suspension arm

Which has been confirmed to be just the rear bush

As @jrkitching points out the quote doesn't fit the work involved, so alarm bells are ringing

I be dubious about the seal on the gearbox

Oh....
I know he charges £60ph. Is that a good price? He did suggest having both bushes replaced at the same time becuase of the front of the car having to be removed and he said that when ones goes, the other generally goes shortly after. Is this true? I think someone else mentioned the replacement bush would be £30 (£60 for both). But I'm not sure how long it would take to do.

 

[Ferniferous]

That's crazy. In Switzerland, for the "easier" to check problems, taking the vehicle on the lift to have a quick look (of less than 5 minutes) is usually free, if nothing needs to be removed.

However, as modern cars have an engine bay protection unterneath fixed by 6 to 8 screws which need to be removed and refitted to have a good look, that actually might trigger costs as they do more than "just look".

Still, they should not need more than 20 min to fill up the fluid, take the car on the lift, remove the undercover, take a quick look and refit the cover. The fluid is expensive, though.

Yea, i mean the mechanic i took it to yesterday didn't charge me for putting it up on the lift and having a look.
Am i right in thinking that it's not easy to get to that resevoir to top that fluid up? Or have a misremembered that.

 

[jrkitching]

He did suggest having both bushes replaced at the same time becuase of the front of the car having to be removed and he said that when ones goes, the other generally goes shortly after. Is this true?

Yes, that would be good practice and would save paying twice to have the bumper removed if the other side were to fail later.

On an older car, it's also possible the bottom swivels will need replacing at some point; if you change the wishbones complete, it will take care of this as well, and should make the job slightly faster since there's then no need to mess about replacing the bushes. Complete wishbones aren't that much more expensive than what you're been quoted for the bushes. £30 each for just the bushes seems a lot.

If you're selling the car, showing that you've replaced both sides will indicate to a prospective buyer that you've done more than the minimum necessary to get an MOT, and might help you get a better price for it. The last thing you want when selling is having the most recent MOT stuffed with advisories.