General Slow starter

[lazylobster]

Hi all, as it's now colder in the run up to winter, I thought I would ask your opinion on whether or not you think my starter motor is a little bit laboured?

As per the video. Starter engaged with ignition off. What do you think, sound OK, sound normal? The car starts ok once the fuel pump (mechanical) has done it's job.

Regards
Rob


[ame]https://youtu.be/J6SdzhPO43s[/ame]

 

[Hutbed]

Definitely a bit slower than any of the 3 I've used (both with the original 499 and the 700 engines). Does it remain slow with additional electricity applied?

 

[MOD500]

If you have the right voltage and a good earth, brushes may be the next culprit.

 

[lazylobster]

Hooked up another battery but turn over the same. The starter is much better once hot. I may look to refurb it. I've no idea how old it is, but I suspect it's the original.

R

 

[fiat500]

Hooked up another battery but turn over the same. The starter is much better once hot. I may look to refurb it. I've no idea how old it is, but I suspect it's the original.

R

Sounds quite normal to me and I've overhauled my starter. A stripdown, clean and maybe new brushes would give a bit more kick but I wouldn't panic.

 

[the hobbler]

I suspect that it is the starter. I had what sounds like exactly the same scenario ---slow when cold, OK when warm.In my case it turned out to be a dead area in the commutator. A good clean up and new brushes completely cured the problem.

 

[Vitesse]

Sounds quite normal to me and I've overhauled my starter. A stripdown, clean and maybe new brushes would give a bit more kick but I wouldn't panic.

Sounds normal to me as well, just sounds like it’s waiting for the juice to reach the carb. Do you trickle charge your battery?

 

[Uaglio]

I don't like how mine sounds either, but sounds normal to me. If it's any consolation, the starter on my first motor (an old true 500) sounded like that. When I got a freshly rebuilt starter on my all-new/rebuilt 650, I was excited thinking it would spin furiously like a Honda motorcycle starter. But nope - same unsatisfying sound and slow spin rate. Makes me nervous every time, but always starts and haven't killed the battery yet!

 

[fiat500]

I suspect that it is the starter. I had what sounds like exactly the same scenario ---slow when cold, OK when warm.In my case it turned out to be a dead area in the commutator. A good clean up and new brushes completely cured the problem.

Coincidentally I captured the sound of my starter one cold morning a couple of days ago in answer to another question...it's right at the beginning of this boring little video, which I made as a follow-up to one that I made of paint drying.

https://www.fiatforum.com/500-classic/477265-dynamo-vary-volts-depending-rpms.html?p=4506775

I note that Rob asked if his starter "is a little bit laboured?"; so to tell him that you "suspect it is the starter" is a bit of an odd comment..he's already said that.

I am pretty sure that every car I ever owned prior to the widespread use of fuel injection and computer management was more eager to turn over and start when hot when compared with when it was cold.

If Rob's starter had a bad area on the commutator, odds are that he would be asking why it occasionally wouldn't turn at all or had a rhythmic misbeat as it was turned over.

There's no point in making work for yourself Rob lazylobster. As you can't avoid being repeatedly told, my starter is used on an extremely regular basis as yours also appears to be and sounds much like yours; perhaps Tom's problem was more as result of inactivity?

 

[F123C]

Your starter sounds pretty much normal to me also.

They do say that there is more drag on a cold engine due to cold oil, so I'd expect it to spin over a bit faster when hot. Also, it's not fair to compare the starter motor operating speed of a classic Fiat 500 with that of a more modern car - many such cars have a gear train (reduction gears?) incorporated in the starter motor which will make it sound 'livelier'.

But, just in case you do decide to remove the starter and do some work on it, I'll offer the following tips that might help make it spin over a little faster.

1) OIL THE BUSHES!!!

There's 2 bushes fitted on the armature shaft. If they are porous (most are) e.g. phosphor bronze or sintered metal, they need to soaked in engine oil for 24 hours. You can speed up this process by using a finger to seal one end of the bush, fill with oil and then use your thumb to squeeze the oil until you see oil oozing through to the outside. (might have to repeat a couple of times). If you want to oil bushes already in place, position vertically, seal one end, fill with oil and leave to soak in. This makes a big difference to starter operating speed.
I've even noticed a difference by just squirting a little oil into the bush next to the starter pinion whenever the starter motor is removed for some other purpose e.g. a clutch change.

2). Misalignment? Sometimes there can be a little binding between the armature shaft and the supporting bushes when the starter is reassembled.
Before tightening the 2 through bolts, I always try twisting the endplate (which carries the brushes) from left to right to find the position where everything seems 'happiest'. (there are iirc locating lugs/dowels which engage with cut-outs so not much relative movement will be possible).
I then hold the starter motor in a bench vice and spin it over using a battery and jumper cables while tightening the 2 through bolts.

3). If fitting new carbon brushes to a starter motor, bed their contact surfaces to match the curvature of the armature commutator using either a large 1/2 round file or some abrasive paper wrapped around the commutator.
Without doing this, the brushes will bed-in over time, but why not get things as near right, i.e. maximum electrical contact, from the beginning.

I agree with MOD500 about the importance of a good earth, not just between the battery and chassis/body but also between the engine and chassis. The integrity of the engine to body earth can be quickly checked using a battery jumper cable between engine and a known good earth point on the body.

Al.

 

[the hobbler]

Poor choice of words on my part Peter, but it does sound exactly how my starter sounded before i had it checked over and repaired. After a clean up of the commutator, a clean out of the grooves between the commutator elements and the fitment of new brushes, the starter spun over much quicker when cold, even though my engine is a tuned '650'. Inactivity is not something my engine suffers from---I have, as I suspect most 500 owners do, a mileage limit each year. Mine is 3,000 and last year I got darn close to that limit. I will however concede that is nowhere near your annual mileage Peter---you are an inspiration to us all as to how a 500 SHOULD be used.

 

[fiat500]

Poor choice of words on my part Peter, but it does sound exactly how my starter sounded before i had it checked over and repaired. .

There's a difference between a "poor choice of words" and erring towards a possible wrong diagnosis given the "symptoms".

I didn't dispute the fact that an overhaul would be likely to give improvements, but the original question was whether the starter sounds normal; the general consensus other than from you is that it is normal.

As youve just said yourself elsewhere, "In the wise words of Ferry Porsche "if it ain't broke, don't repair it."

 

[the hobbler]

I think that we will have to politely agree to disagree on this one Peter---from my experience the video of the engine being turned over shows the engine turning over slower than I would expect, or experience with my engine now that the starter has been overhauled. Yes, there could be other causes but I think that giving the starter a good check-over and service will not go amiss and will probably alleviate the slow(ish) cranking speed when the engine is cold. It would be interesting to hear what the outcome eventually is re this situation. I rest my case, and will comment no more on this subject.

 

[lazylobster]

Dear all thank you for your input, advice and opinion. As ever, I've learnt a lot from your posts.

For the time being, I'll leave alone. If it gets progressively worse then I'll take a view then.

My thanks
Rob

 

[fiat500]

I think that giving the starter a good check-over and service will not go amiss and will probably alleviate the slow(ish) cranking speed when the engine is cold. It would be interesting to hear what the outcome eventually is re this situation. I rest my case, and will comment no more on this subject.

Same here because I said it already.

A stripdown, clean and maybe new brushes would give a bit more kick but I wouldn't panic.

 

[F123C]

:wave: Rob,

In the Downloads section there's, as you probably already know, available to download, a Fiat 500 Owner's Manual (all thanks to our very kind member 'Bambino').

On page 32, there a recommendation for starter motor lubrication etc. every 30k.kms/18k.mls. I'll type it out her to save you the trouble of looking it up :-

Every 30,000 kms - Clean the commutator carefully, check wear and contact conditions of brushes and replace if necessary, seating the brushes on the commutator. When servicing the starter motor, lubricate the freewheel components with Fiat MR2 grease (that Lithium base, NLGI No.2 grease).

Also, in the workshop manual that is available in the downloads section, there is, in Chapter 11 - Electrical, a full description of overhauling the starter motor incl. a parts diagram. It mentions the procedure for lubricating the bushes (i.e. soak in engine oil for 24 hrs as I mentioned in my earlier post).

Rebuilding your starter motor (even if you just strip, clean and lube) would be an ideal small job to do over the winter, should you be not using your 500 quite so much - it'd be a shame to leave it to next summer (that's if we get one :bang: ) and miss out on possible driving time. Just a thought....

Regards,

Al.

 

[lazylobster]

Sage advice Al, my thanks.
R