Technical Seicento Sporting cam-belt noise?????

[daz123]

hey all, hope someone can help.

my larl Seicento 2001 Sporting has developed a cam-belt noise, its a sort of whining,sequel,grinding noise, my first thoughts were its the cam-belt tensioner.

it go's up in speed and pitch with the reving of the engine, honestly anyone who heres it says CAM-BELT TENSIONER

so replacing it should fix this problem right? NOPE

after a replacement kit (cam-belt and tensioner) still the same.

well i thought i had it too tight so re-tensioned it but still no luck.
in the end up i took my chances and bought yet another kit but still the same stupid noise.

then thought it can only be water pump (seems fine no leaks or overheating)

I'm thinking to myself this has to fix it I've put two sets of cam-belt and tensioner ? NOPE:bang:

now at this point I'm fed up, i now have a brand new cam-belt and tensioner, an brand new water pump (what leaks my fault and an easy fix tho)

so anyone got any ideas I've even tried with a loose cam-belt which fixed the problem but it was so loose it was trailing along the floor

 

[whitz]

sounds like a bearing somewhere to me

EDIT: take off the alternator belt and see if the noise has gone, if it has then you know the alterator has gone and strike off one thing if it isnt

 

[daz123]

sounds like a bearing somewhere to me

EDIT: take off the alternator belt and see if the noise has gone, if it has then you know the alternator has gone and strike off one thing if it isn't

I've tried that and running engine with alt belt off has no affect,

over tightening a cam-belt, that wouldn't damage the crank and or cam bearings ??? there under extreme pressure so it would be impossible to tighten a belt up enough to damage anything else "OR WOULD IT!! "

its a strange one, I've ordered another bearing. you never know third time lucky

thanks for the reply

 

[Pep0]

Try getting some one else to depress the clutch pedal, slowly, while you listen to the noise.

Noel

 

[daz123]

Try getting some one else to depress the clutch pedal, slowly, while you listen to the noise.

Noel

yer its not gearbox ether just fitted it (new abarth box, clutch and release bearing and cables)

i did remember my old box making a noise but this noise is defo coming from engine, and i could swair its the tensioner but its been replaced twice, and when my new one comes that will be the third.

:idea::idea:

thanks

 

[Pep0]

(new abarth box, clutch and release bearing and cables)

Even more reason to try the clutch

When my clutch was done the noise from the clutch did not go away, as it was from the alternator... real embarrassing that.

Stick little pinky in tensioner if it rotates in hand with out any problems, smooth it is probably ok, try the one not on the auto.

Noel

 

[daz123]

Even more reason to try the clutch

Stick little pinky in tensioner if it rotates in hand with out any problems, smooth it is probably ok, try the one not on the auto.

Noel

every tensioner bought, turns smoothly but slightly stiff, and the old one that i took off which was brand new and only on car for a week (with 1hour running time) is also in new condition no obvious defects other then a bit stiff/tight from being new.

and water pump the same, old one (which was original from engine) spins extreamly free with no defects and spins smooth, and the new one just fitted (apart from the leak due to me not sealing it right ) was smooth when turning but slightly stiff/tight from being new.


oh and clutch/gearbox end is fine, just been out and had a look,:worship: thats one good thing ha ha

Daz

 

[whitz]

erm have a look under the engine were the thin metal cover for the fly wheel is and make sure its not rubbing against the flywheel

 

[daz123]

yer had a look seems to be fitted correctly, cant really go wrong (I think)

had another look,and thought id had an idea:idea: and even tried running it without everything fitted, aux belt, cam belt covers, and....

STILL the same I'm at a end with ideas, :bang:

feel free to throw some ideas along no matter how stupid I'm willing to try anything.

is it possible that Ive over tightened the belt and damaged the cam bearing, i really cant see the crank going and the noise is only near the top (around the tensioner)

daz

 

[whitz]

have a go at pushing the cam pully , back and forth as in towards cylinder 4 then 1 to see how much end float is on it

as you have had the cam off have you tried turning the cam or crank to feel if they are rough or jolty

i very much dowt the cam can put that much pressure onto the bearings

have you checked that there is enough oil and on that matter take the rocker cover off and check the oil feed like for the cam (bar across the cam at he top) to see that it is giving oil to all of mounting points for the cam

Ash

 

[daz123]

have a go at pushing the cam pully , back and forth as in towards cylinder 4 then 1 to see how much end float is on it

erm not sure what you mean? the bearing don't move in that directing (as its bolted to the engine and it don't move)

but speaking along them lines , what if its tensioned that far the bearing is actually coming into contact with the engine?

just how do i go about getting belt off without moving tensionerso find out?

i know it may sound stupid but ain't there 2-3 different sized belts for these engines as if i remember right my first engine (original 2001 had a different length belt from the current 2003 engine due to the slight difference in cam pulley) i might well be wrong so please correct me if I'm wrong but if im not i might have to long of a belt which when tensioned the bearing is so far back its hitting engine.

I'll have another look later and see if i can make any sense of it all, i need to get water pump off anyway to re-seal it :bang:.

 

[whitz]

im not sure about the cam belts

but what i meen is to check if teh bearing is that bad that it is moving back and forth when its not ment to be, also to check the end float on it (the about it moves back and forth)

 

[daz123]

ahhh got ya sorry a bit slow there.

well its got ne play wat so ever, well just had a look was going to re-do the water pump leak but got f****d off so just left it for now. but after listening I'm not to sure its the tensioner :shrug:

its now sounding as if its the cam at the cam-belt side (cyl 1), i did have the head done before the cam-belt, but just needed skI'mmed, so i was told.

im very reluctant tho to take head off again as it gets really annoying cause its been off so many times, but now its sounding like thats the only other option.

its getting oil to all the cam but don't mean anything at this point

daz

 

[Pep0]

Hi

I dont think it is likely to be the plain bearing at the end of the cam shaft but did you check it for clearance while the head was off, or alter it or the cam shaft in any way, like swap in the higher lift cam?

Noel

 

[daz123]

UPDATE

well after a long day today taking everything apart and putting it together again about 6 times, i decided to take a chance with another sei i have for parts (well it is now)

so removed the tensioner with bolt locating plate (not sure wat its called its the metal disk that hold tensioner) to find the metal disk is firmly in place.

anyway after removing my current possible noisy tensioner i notice metal filings on it and a groove in the engine block (where the tensioner sits flush to) at first i thought ts just with age, but noticed the other good engine idnt have any marks on the side of the engine in the tensioner area.

and also the metal disk that hold the tensioner on my ca is slack VERY slack, so IMO the bearing must have been spinning on the metal disk and because theres a slight groove in the engine its not been siting tight enough to hold the center of the bearing steady

moment of truth after refitting water pump due to leak,:worship: AND it starts with no noise FIXED

strange know now i did have everything in bits including the cam out to inspect bearings and just about everything off engine, cleaned and oiled .

to be honest i don't think I'll be really sure what was the cause, but looking at th old bearing and locating disk there is obvious signs of friction so obviously defective, but don't really under stand why when i tested it for movement like whitz suggested i didn't notice anything.
guess i should be grateful i don't have that stupid noise.

thanks guys for your posts an help and ideas n this post,

MOT time tomoz at 2:30pm (which it will pass with no probs I'm sure)

 

[daz123]

Hi

I don't think it is likely to be the plain bearing at the end of the cam shaft but did you check it for clearance while the head was off, or alter it or the cam shaft in any way, like swap in the higher lift cam?

Noel

sorry didn't see your post be for posting my update,

no this engines totally standard, and inspecting the bearings of the cam came up blank they seemed fine, i did clean them up and make sure they were seated right, but its been running most of the afternoon and so far no noise:worship:
daz

 

[Pep0]

If the tensioner was not free to rotate and has burnished the belt I'd fit a new belt anyway, belts allus fail when it is dark ad raining and you have a way to go to get home.

Noel

 

[daz123]

If the tensioner was not free to rotate and has burnished the belt I'd fit a new belt

Noel

it was spinning free, belts fine still brand new with all markings

strange tho, you never you it could be C**P tensioners from my local motor factors that dont fit right, or me being a P**K and not fittng it right:bang:

still so far so good

daz

 

[daz123]

wel the larl car past its mot with no problems what so ever

after taking it for a spin, i notice the EML start flashing, it only seems to do it when over about 3k rpm, and backing off the throttle and slowing down seems to stop it.

just woundering if you guys had any idear, thought it would be best to keep it in here as it ould be related, my only thoughts at the moment is the timing aint right??

tho the car seems ok mabe a little on the slow side but ive been using a 1.2 stilo as my main car for the last 6 months so prob just use to stilo.

daz

 

[cc1]

Phonic wheel reset.
https://www.fiatforum.com/cinquecento-seicento/91258-phonic-wheel.html