Technical Red steering wheel light

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Technical Red steering wheel light

Nope it’s absolutely dangerous, that’s why it’s an automatic MOT fail if the steering light is on. It’s also been the cause of accidents, I believe it was ChrisUK who’s dad crashed his Mk2b Punto when the power steering failed mid corner.
What’s dangerous is telling people they can continue to drive a car with failed power steering.
Assuming your van is not and was not designed and built with power steering that’s fine but even if you have hydraulic power steering that’s failed it’s not safe to drive on the road as the steering rack and components are not designed to be used in that way.

Also if you are used to driving a car with the power steering you may not have the strength to control the car if the power steering fails, so if the eps stops working at speed it may come as a nasty surprise when you slow down for a corner or round about and find you don’t have the strength to steer the car and avoid an accident
this
A car with failed power steering will be a lot heavier then acar designed to be driven without it as they often have different rack ratios as well as possible stage from the motor/pump system
It also a bit of a shock the sudden massive increase in force needed easily enough time make most People brains freeze for a few seconds trying to think
 
Spend £5 on a cigar lighter voltmeter and tell us the value showing the next time it flicks on the warning. If you cant read it on the floor, then get an extension lead and duck tape it to the dash. It wont be there for long because if the volts are ok the issue is steering. If the volts are low its the charging system or battery.
 
Spend £5 on a cigar lighter voltmeter and tell us the value showing the next time it flicks on the warning. If you cant read it on the floor, then get an extension lead and duck tape it to the dash. It wont be there for long because if the volts are ok the issue is steering. If the volts are low its the charging system or battery.

Might not help the refresh rates of those meters can be quite long in which case the meter may not show any problems at all if the voltage drops for just a few milliseconds enough to cause a fault but not enough to be picked up between samples
 
Spend £5 on a cigar lighter voltmeter and tell us the value showing the next time it flicks on the warning. If you cant read it on the floor, then get an extension lead and duck tape it to the dash. It wont be there for long because if the volts are ok the issue is steering. If the volts are low its the charging system or battery.

no no no proves nothing in most cases

might work if its rare alternator fault. Yours is the only one I know of and with seized bearing I am surprised you didn't heard it squealing

on my old cars it will measure over 14V all the time been there many times. I have several volt meters. Written about it many times. In fact my job is
component level repairs.in electronics / computers

data logging the voltage several times a second might show a brief drop. I don't know I haven't tried it. I also haven't tried an analogue meter


for me substitution is by far the easiest way only takes a couple of minutes.
 
no no no proves nothing in most cases

might work if its rare alternator fault. Yours is the only one I know of and with seized bearing I am surprised you didn't heard it squealing

for me substitution is by far the easiest way only takes a couple of minutes.


Substitution of what ?

Alternator.. Steering column..

All quite expensive..

May as well pay the £100 to see if its the same fault code as 18 months ago ( or not)
 
Substitution of what ?

Alternator.. Steering column..

All quite expensive..

May as well pay the £100 to see if its the same fault code as 18 months ago ( or not)

I have written many times I have two cars I just swap the batteries over. The
whole process takes a few minutes and you know within the first test drive if that was the problem. I have tried with volt meters and usually everything appears to be charging fine. Its not time efficient.

I would normally hook up MES and read the code. I have the full version and a vagcom switchable cable. And read the codes. But last time it read sensor but was battery and recalibration so isn't 100%

so far I have had electric power steering errors on a Vauxhall, Mercedes and Fiat.

out of the 5x three have been battery. None have required a torque sensor or exchange column. Thats not to say they don't fail, which they do, especially the early ones with the dry joint on the relay, but the odds are in favour of a simple repair. Battery, reseat and recalibration.

The last two would also be repaired by an exchange unit even if it wasn't needed.
 
My Punto Sporting Speedgear steering used to fail when on full lock on very cold days. I suspected the battery was marginal but the car behaved OK otherwise. The steering never failed whilst driving. Although a small car, the steering was very heavy when it did fail. Restarting the car always reset it.
 
I would normally hook up MES and read the code. I have the full version and a vagcom switchable cable. And read the codes. But last time it read sensor but was battery and recalibration so isn't 100%

so far I have had electric power steering errors on a Vauxhall, Mercedes and Fiat.

out of the 5x three have been battery. None have required a torque sensor or exchange column. Thats not to say they don't fail, which they do, especially the early ones with the dry joint on the relay, but the odds are in favour of a simple repair. Battery, reseat and recalibration.

The last two would also be repaired by an exchange unit even if it wasn't needed.

Thanks. :)

So a sensor deprived of its 9+ volts supply flags an error..
I'm ok with that principle

So.. with your pandas..

Have you had the C#### steering torque sensor codes with a failing battery..?

That doesnt show again after battery replacement..??

Im intrigued..as Ive only had 2 experiences of EPAS problems

A punto sporting with a bad output regulator on its alternator (occasionally faulty on 1st start.. needed to reach 3,000 rpm to 'wake.up')

Our 04 panda did lose its steering once..
At the end of its 17 mile commute

Turned into carpark

Steering cut.. engine cut.. dead

Passed the keys to Fiat-Alfa place opposite.. no faults found

Fitted its 1st replacement battery.. never occurred again (y)
 
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Thanks. :)

So a sensor deprived of its 9+ volts supply flags an error..
I'm ok with that principle

So.. with your pandas..

Have you had the C#### steering torque sensor codes with a failing battery..?

That doesnt show again after battery replacement..??

Im intrigued..as Ive only had 2 experiences of EPAS problems

A punto sporting with a bad output regulator on its alternator (occasionally faulty on 1st start.. needed to reach 3,000 rpm to 'wake.up')

Our 04 panda did lose its steering once..
At the end of its 17 mile commute

Turned into carpark

Steering cut.. engine cut.. dead

Passed the keys to Fiat-Alfa place opposite.. no faults found

Fitted its 1st replacement battery.. never occurred again (y)

Have you had the C#### steering torque sensor codes with a failing battery..?

yes but only once.


If you look back at my earlier posts you will see I advise people to hooking up MES and if it reads power change the battery and if it reads torque change the torque.

I now have to back track as its not 100% as I First thought

both Pandas I had I bought cheap. Both failed on the First frosts.

one of the batteries fitted failed 2 winters on( it was second hand)

immediately after fitting a brand new battery to the 06 car the steering went worse. Every sharp corner it would loose all assistance. If you parked up and inched the steering wheel slightly it would start to wobble from side to side on its own. Recalibration fixed this and had no problems until the car was scrapped.

I does feel because we are on a Fiat forum that its a Fiat problem. Its not. Watchdog even did a program how Vauxhalls were inherently dangerous due to the sudden loss of power assist
 
Might not help the refresh rates of those meters can be quite long in which case the meter may not show any problems at all if the voltage drops for just a few milliseconds enough to cause a fault but not enough to be picked up between samples

Lab standard is not needed for this job. The battery damps out sudden voltage changes so a cheap meter is enough to see the volts drop due to low alternator output or weak battery.
 
There's more than one failure mode. All of the following have been reported at one time or another.


Case 1: The red light illuminates, but the steering continues to operate normally

Case 2: Power assistance is lost, with or without the red light illuminating

Case 3: Unwanted power assistance is applied when it is not needed.


The consequences of the different cases will likely also be very different.

Case 1, if ignored, generally develops into Case 2; nobody can predict whether this will be minutes, hours, weeks or even years later. Usually the problem begins as an intermittent one that clears when the engine is restarted, then becomes more persistent before finally becoming permanent. If the red light is on, then it's an MOT fail, regardless of whether the PAS actually works or not.

Case 2 means the steering will get heavier, but the car will otherwise steer normally. How much heavier depends on how fast you are going. At cruising speed, it may only be noticeable when you slow down; at slow parking speed, the steering becomes very heavy indeed. A competent driver should be able to handle this case without putting either themselves, or anyone else, into significant danger, but it could be dangerous if an inexperienced driver thinks the steering itself has failed and panics.

Case 3, fortunately much rarer, is potentially lethal however competent the driver. Uncommanded full power steering deflection at motorway speeds could have catastrophic consequences. Whilst the forces probably could be overcome by a person of average stength, in practice you'd be unlikely to react before the car was completely out of control. Even though this is only a remote possibility, the consequences are so serious that this is, in itself, good reason not to continue to drive the car with the light on (but see my final comment below).

The only responsible advice anyone can give is to follow the instructions given in the handbook; if the red light comes on, stop as soon as safely practicable and, unless you are very competent, get the car professionally examined and, if necessary, repaired before driving it again. Often, but not always, changing the battery and/or refurbishing the earthing arrangements restores normal operation, but that does not mean that all issues are battery related; torque sensors can and do fail, in which case repair or replacement of the steering column is the only way of fixing the problem.

If you are faced with an EPAS issue and you need to complete a long journey, consider removing the power steering fuse. You won't have power assistance, but you will have the certainty of the issue not developing into a case 3 scenario.
 
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Lab standard is not needed for this job. The battery damps out sudden voltage changes so a cheap meter is enough to see the volts drop due to low alternator output or weak battery.

I can't keep saying it

you wrote you had a sized bearing on your alternator and you found it use a cigarette socket volt meter


I have had faulty batteries and have tried seeing if you can see a volt drop at the cigarette socket and I can't. I can't even see a problem with a fluke meter. I can't


I am an component level electronics engineer. I don't change modules I work out which resistor. IC and change the part.


It bugs me not knowing. But don't have enough interest to find out what is been measured by the Delph system and where to pull up the error code (volts/amp/resistance)


until a couple of weeks ago I had several faulty batteries in the garage including one with dead cells (11.8V at rest from memory)that never throws a steering code you would have been more than welcome to put them in any car and do any test you like. I have. Unfortunately I have scrapped them for the lead.


until someone properly diagnoses the problem properly and finds a simple test he quick and dirty method that works is to substitute a known Good battery.


Voltmeter isnt 100%
MES isnt 100%


They can point you in the right direction or wrong direction see post above


I haven't seen MES say it the battery and it been the torque does that make it 100% this way round or have just not seen it ?
 
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Well, as promised. Light came on again this morning on way to work. Have phones garage and it’s booked in for diagnostics tomorrow morning. I suspect the same fault code will return, so anything I should let the mechanics know about tomorrow and any red herrings they should be checking? I’m assuming the first thing is to check all wiring? Then check the battery, and then go ahead with the new steering column?
 
Last week, after a couple of weeks of "fault finding" (I wasn't involved, but it involved at least one local garage, and a local mechanic who I know) a friend of mine asked me to sell him a spare Panda EPS column.
I did suggest he should check the battery and earth cable, amongst other things, but he was already convinced the column was at fault and I was too busy to help out at the time.
I let him have my spare column as the Panda is his only transport, and he changed it over at the weekend.
He's just phoned to say the "new" column does exactly the same as the old one...
He's working until Wednesday, but I suspect I will be helping him swap the battery and/or run a new earth cable on Thursday.
And then put his "faulty" unit back in my pile of spares to sit patiently until I get a real EPS failure to use it on.
 
I would, but then again a garage and a mechanic supposedly did, and still stuffed up the diagnosis.

My "fix" will be a battery swap AND
a) an extra earth lead from battery negative to engine, and
b) another from battery negative to gearbox.

I got a few sets made up last time I had access to a hydraulic crimp tool, but they are cheap enough from ebay. Or a good local mechanic can make them up very easily for a few quid.

(The original earth lead is a single lead with a bolt through terminal in the middle, but I didn't have any bolt through terminals available)
 
Guess I have to wait and see what the fault code reader comes back with.
 
Last week, after a couple of weeks of "fault finding" (I wasn't involved, but it involved at least one local garage, and a local mechanic who I know) a friend of mine asked me to sell him a spare Panda EPS column.
I did suggest he should check the battery and earth cable, amongst other things, but he was already convinced the column was at fault and I was too busy to help out at the time.
I let him have my spare column as the Panda is his only transport, and he changed it over at the weekend.
He's just phoned to say the "new" column does exactly the same as the old one...
He's working until Wednesday, but I suspect I will be helping him swap the battery and/or run a new earth cable on Thursday.
And then put his "faulty" unit back in my pile of spares to sit patiently until I get a real EPS failure to use it on.

the electric power steering is earthed to the body shell at the centre of the scuttle.

if you are going to run an extra earth from the battery you would be better to run one to the chassis leg


Punto's have a nice thick gauge lead connected to the starter. Had a an eye on both ends ready done. Just the wrong colour (red)


its easy to bolt onto to battery terminal and the gear selector cable bracket just bolts straight on

It does reduce the voltage drop while cranking from a weak battery. If the clocks have just started to reseat it will extent the time before you have to change the battery.


Shouldn't make any difference to the electric power steering though. I had one permanently connected on one car from when I was fixing an intermittent no Crank.


I say shouldn't a there is always one where an unrelated part fixes a problem
 
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All I can do is ask them to make it safe to drive. I have more or less made up my mind that I have lost confidence in the car and need to trade her in.
 
D'oh... that'd be why I made up so many short cables. Been a while since I had to fit any, and I really couldn't remember why I had made 3 different lengths.

Well spotted.

Just had a look at the "prototype" which was a multijet. Much tighter for access than the 1.2, so I improvised rather than replaced... left the original cable in place and added 3 new cables:

First
Battery -> Bodyshell under scuttle (uses existing 8mm earthed stud)

Second
Bodyshell (as above) -> Gearbox bellhousing.

The original lead goes
Battery -> Bodyshell under battery tray -> Gearbox, (part number 51750227 for the Multijet - may be the same for the 1.2?)

The third size I made goes from the battery to engine block, and is just an "additional" earth cable.
(I have used a couple of these by themselves instead of the "jump lead test", and they simply got left in place because they fixed the problem. I guess they would work when the original lead fails at the bottom terminal, but the middle one is still OK. Must make some more when I get the chance)

Solved the poor starting, EPS light, random ECU errors and clock reset problems a couple of years ago and still working fine.
 
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