General Rear axle removal.

[tonyn]

Hello all, I have to fit a new rear axle to my daughters 2007 1.1 Panda.
My question is this, Is it possible to remove the hub and stub axle as a complete unit, once the abs sensor and brake pipe has been disconnected from the rear of the hub.
Thanks.

 

[koalar]

No idea never tried

Disconnecting the handbrake cable would be tricky

And everything would have to come apart to fit the handbrake cable back anyhow

 

[irc]

Hello all, I have to fit a new rear axle to my daughters 2007 1.1 Panda.
My question is this, Is it possible to remove the hub and stub axle as a complete unit, once the abs sensor and brake pipe has been disconnected from the rear of the hub.
Thanks.

It is (sometimes) possible, if you disconnect the handbrake cables at the other (lever) end.
However, unless you know that the rear brakes (including wheel cylinders) are perfect, it's probably not worth trying.
I did do this on a car which had a serious rear wheel alignment problem, and had recently had new brake shoes, cylinders and drums properly fitted. It also had a very clean (but bent) rear beam. This meant everything came apart pretty easily. Otherwise I would have just taken the opportunity to check and/or refresh the brakes as part of the job anyway.

 

[tonyn]

Hello all, I have to fit a new rear axle to my daughters 2007 1.1 Panda.
My question is this, Is it possible to remove the hub and stub axle as a complete unit, once the abs sensor and brake pipe has been disconnected from the rear of the hub.
Thanks.

Hopefully I will only be disconnecting the handbrake from the lever end , and then removing the the hub and stub axle as a complete unit, to then bolt onto the new axle.
Any thoughts anyone?
Thanks

 

[tonyn]

It is (sometimes) possible, if you disconnect the handbrake cables at the other (lever) end.
However, unless you know that the rear brakes (including wheel cylinders) are perfect, it's probably not worth trying.
I did do this on a car which had a serious rear wheel alignment problem, and had recently had new brake shoes, cylinders and drums properly fitted. It also had a very clean (but bent) rear beam. This meant everything came apart pretty easily. Otherwise I would have just taken the opportunity to check and/or refresh the brakes as part of the job anyway.

Thanks irc,
yes its recently had new shoes, cylinders and hub bearings on the back, so hoping to lift the hubs and stub axle as an entire intact unit.
Any thoughts?

 

[irc]

Thanks irc,
yes its recently had new shoes, cylinders and hub bearings on the back, so hoping to lift the hubs and stub axle as an entire intact unit.
Any thoughts?

Hub studs (probably should be "Upright" or "knuckle" studs can be awkward. Wire brush and use penetrating oil (not WD40). If you have to resort to heat or nut splitter then best to replace affected studs/nuts.
Some people don't like undoing the 3 bolts each side holding the beam arms. I've not had a problem with them, but I guess they could be a problem.
Expect to replace flexi pipes and hard pipes to wheel cylinders. If the flexi pipes are too badly corroded, there is another join under the plastic front-to-back channel cover, which is usually OK.

Whole job is best done without time pressures, as there are plenty of small things that can hold you up. On the other hand, it's not a hard job, and Panda parts are comparatively simple and cheap.
Make sure the rear turrets (where the bump stops go) is in good order - it's not unknown for the entire end to disappear, leaving a large round hole instead of a small one. Easiest to find a couple from a scrap Panda and cut-and-paste, but repair section is not complicated to make if not available.
And, when getting to the end, as always with rear dampers, only tighten when car is back on its wheels, or the bushes will fail very quickly.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I'm probably going to be doing this to our 2010 Panda 1.2 this summer. It got an advisory for spring pan corrosion on this year's MOT. I believe the 4 fixings that hold the hubs to the axle can put up a bit of a fight but I'm more concerned about maybe shearing one of the 6 bolts that hold the front mounts to the floor. I've decided I'm going to try the two big through bolts first and if they come out cleanly I'll not be touching the 6 bracket bolts. Last year I did a complete overhaul of the rear hubs - new cylinders and shoes, metal pipes, flexes, bearings checked and OK. Probably going to treat it to new drums this time round as the old ones are pretty rough externally. I couldn't get the tube nuts to give up on the flex hoses so went round to Kenny's garage to see if they would turn their welding flame on them for me. Ended up just leaving it with them and they did the flexes and metal pipes for me and popped the new cylinders on as well - did the shoes myself. Left it with them first thing in the morning and they rang me at lunchtime to come and collect it! I'd probably have still been struggling with the first side by then! I'm determined to do the axle myself though as a matter of principle!

PS please do let us know how you get on. and, as irc said above, don't fully tighten the front through bolts or the shocker bolts until the axle is at normal ride height. Why? because if you tighten these with the weight off the car the rubber bushes will tension as the axle takes up it's normal ride height - ie, it "screws up" the rubber in the bushes which will cause them to fail early. They need to be "relaxed" at normal ride height.

 

[Yolanda]

Hello all, I have to fit a new rear axle to my daughters 2007 1.1 Panda.
My question is this, Is it possible to remove the hub and stub axle as a complete unit, once the abs sensor and brake pipe has been disconnected from the rear of the hub.
Thanks.

You would have to remove the brake drum then shoes in order to release the handbrake cable from the backplate which isn't a big job.
The shoes can be removed with the springs and adjuster mechanism in place. Wind the adjustment nuts off to there limits at the handbrake lever to give plenty of slack in the cable, then twist the shoe assembly to remove the cable.

 

[portland_bill]

It is possible to remove the hub complete, with the cables dangling, but this does make it more difficult.

The four nuts holding the hub will be tight. Due to rust, they get tighter. There will be much fighting and swearing, and possible some tears. Access is awkward.
Half of mine brought the stud out, instead of the nuts coming off. That then needs the nut removed before the stud is replaced, to ensure the stud is properly seated. I bought a full set of studs and nuts from Shop4parts. One stud refused to come out of the hub, so was reused. All took a lot of work. Need a good bench and vice, lots of patience, and a good supply of tea.

Holding the hub in a vice, with a handbrake cable dangling, and the weight of the shoes and drum, makes that so much more difficult. Better to dismantle the brakes.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

It is possible to remove the hub complete, with the cables dangling, but this does make it more difficult.

The four nuts holding the hub will be tight. Due to rust, they get tighter. There will be much fighting and swearing, and possible some tears. Access is awkward.
Half of mine brought the stud out, instead of the nuts coming off. That then needs the nut removed before the stud is replaced, to ensure the stud is properly seated. I bought a full set of studs and nuts from Shop4parts. One stud refused to come out of the hub, so was reused. All took a lot of work. Need a good bench and vice, lots of patience, and a good supply of tea.

Holding the hub in a vice, with a handbrake cable dangling, and the weight of the shoes and drum, makes that so much more difficult. Better to dismantle the brakes.

'morning PB. Would you say it's more likely that these hub holding studs would be likely to shear or just wind out of the hub? Mine look pretty corroded. Very handy to know I can buy the studs from S4p, thanks for mentioning that.

 

[irc]

Totally agree. The one that I did do like this was exceptionally rust free, and al nuts were able to be removed with no problems.
Not done another like that since!
It was in the days before pattern beams were available, so the original plan was to investigate whether the beam could be "adjusted".
Thankfully another good beam turned up, so never had to try.
Whichever way you do it, strongly recommend vigorous wire brushing of exposed threads before two or three doses of good penetrating oil, and sensible management of expectations.

EDIT: overlapped with Jock's post.

 

[Yolanda]

As above and a good bit of heat using a blow torch.

 

[DaveMcT]

I did all of this some time ago. DO NOT TRY TO SHORT CUT THE JOB. It will end in tears - seriously.

You will need to fit new rubber bushes to your new axle. Either use a press tool or take them to a garage who has a hydraulic press. Now give the new axle a coat of primer and a few layers of tough paint. NOT Hammerite it's too brittle.

Remove the hand brake cables from the wheel end.
Remove the stub axle nut and remove the hub. It is VERY TIGHT. You will need a long breaker bar and support under the axle.
Seal the brake master cylinder with a PU glove (plastic bags dont work) and put the cap back on.
Unscrew the brake pipes from the cylinders. You will need a little heat on the flare nut to soften the plastic coating. A gas lighter is good enough. The nut will then turn without twisting the metal brake pipe. Fluid will drip but it should soon stop. Clean up the plastic fragments and paint the bare metal. Alternatively you can use grease but that hides corrosion so not the best idea.
There is no need to totally strip the brake back plate just remove it from the stub axle.
The stub axle retaining studs will be rusty and they are almost impossible to clean (poor access). I had two nuts strip and spin leaving a considerable problem to remove them. Consider using HT bolts as replacements. If you use red Loctite, be aware that it will need heating to 120 C before the bolts can be removed. Easy enough with a hot air gun, but the hub has to be removed first.
Now repeat the flare nut process at the chassis end. The glove under the master cylinder lid should have stopped any drips by now.
Consider replacing the steel line and rubber hose with a long braided hose. They cost about £30 each. Make sure the chassis end gets a protection sleeve fitted during assembly and have about four barrel grommets on each hose. The brakes will feel normal if you keep the original rubbers at the front. At the very least, fit new rubber hoses.
I tried to remove the axle pivot bolts but could not get them out. It's easy to remove the axle brackets from under the car. This makes the pivot bolts an easy job and it allows you to fit the whole lot to the car without additional help. Jack the axle from the middle of the twist beam. There's no significant weight so you wont cause any harm.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I did all of this some time ago. DO NOT TRY TO SHORT CUT THE JOB. It will end in tears - seriously.

You will need to fit new rubber bushes to your new axle. Either use a press tool or take them to a garage who has a hydraulic press. Now give the new axle a coat of primer and a few layers of tough paint. NOT Hammerite it's too brittle.

Remove the hand brake cables from the wheel end.
Remove the stub axle nut and remove the hub. It is VERY TIGHT. You will need a long breaker bar and support under the axle.
Seal the brake master cylinder with a PU glove (plastic bags dont work) and put the cap back on.
Unscrew the brake pipes from the cylinders. You will need a little heat on the flare nut to soften the plastic coating. A gas lighter is good enough. The nut will then turn without twisting the metal brake pipe. Fluid will drip but it should soon stop. Clean up the plastic fragments and paint the bare metal. Alternatively you can use grease but that hides corrosion so not the best idea.
There is no need to totally strip the brake back plate just remove it from the stub axle.
The stub axle retaining studs will be rusty and they are almost impossible to clean (poor access). I had two nuts strip and spin leaving a considerable problem to remove them. Consider using HT bolts as replacements. If you use red Loctite, be aware that it will need heating to 120 C before the bolts can be removed. Easy enough with a hot air gun, but the hub has to be removed first.
Now repeat the flare nut process at the chassis end. The glove under the master cylinder lid should have stopped any drips by now.
Consider replacing the steel line and rubber hose with a long braided hose. They cost about £30 each. Make sure the chassis end gets a protection sleeve fitted during assembly and have about four barrel grommets on each hose. The brakes will feel normal if you keep the original rubbers at the front. At the very least, fit new rubber hoses.
I tried to remove the axle pivot bolts but could not get them out. It's easy to remove the axle brackets from under the car. This makes the pivot bolts an easy job and it allows you to fit the whole lot to the car without additional help. Jack the axle from the middle of the twist beam. There's no significant weight so you wont cause any harm.

Thanks for all that Dave. I was going to buy the new axle from I M Axles and it looks like it comes with new bushes already pressed in from what I can see in their advert: https://www.imaxle.co.uk/new-fiat-panda-axle. Although Kenny's chap fitted new metal pipes when they did the flex hoses for me a couple of years ago I've never been very happy with the way they routed the pipes. I like them with nice, straight, runs and tight bends whereas the ones they did more closely resemble limp spaghetti? so I'll be chucking them and making up new pipes.

Sounds like the nuts on the hub castings could be a candidate for splitting with my air chisel, rather than risk damage to the studs? Then with the hubs removed the threads could have a die nut run down them and 8 new nuts fitted for reassembly?

The thing which worries me the most is whether one, or more, of the 6 bolts holding the front brackets to the floor might shear. That's why I said I was going to try to get the two pivot bolts out first then I wouldn't need to disturb the brackets at all.

Do the rear shocker bolts come out easily? Amazingly I've never had to do a rear shocker on any of the pandas we've owned.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

By the way, I'm slightly confused by their advert which states at the top that this axle is for '03 to '11 vehicles but then in the detailed description down the bottom, says it is for years '01 to '18 I though the later Panda (2012 to 2018) had a slightly wider axle?

 

[tonyn]

It is possible to remove the hub complete, with the cables dangling, but this does make it more difficult.

The four nuts holding the hub will be tight. Due to rust, they get tighter. There will be much fighting and swearing, and possible some tears. Access is awkward.
Half of mine brought the stud out, instead of the nuts coming off. That then needs the nut removed before the stud is replaced, to ensure the stud is properly seated. I bought a full set of studs and nuts from Shop4parts. One stud refused to come out of the hub, so was reused. All took a lot of work. Need a good bench and vice, lots of patience, and a good supply of tea.

Holding the hub in a vice, with a handbrake cable dangling, and the weight of the shoes and drum, makes that so much more difficult. Better to dismantle the brakes.

Portland Bill, thanks for the info, I cant see a listing on shop4parts for the studs and nuts, would you be able to point me in the right directions please?
Thanks

 

[tonyn]

Portland Bill, thanks for the info, I cant see a listing on shop4parts for the studs and nuts, would you be able to point me in the right directions please?
Thanks

Sorry Bill, forgot to add, I was hoping to slacken the stub axle nuts loose whilst the axle itself was still on the car.
Do you think this would be possible?

 

[irc]

Do the rear shocker bolts come out easily? Amazingly I've never had to do a rear shocker on any of the pandas we've owned.

Only ever had one top damper bolt which struggled. Windy gun got it in the end. Otherwise they are normally OK.
Not had a problem with the 6 bolts, but have heard that others have.... I always wire brush and paint the arms anyway, which would be awkward with them still on.

 

[DaveMcT]

The lower rear shock bolt threads are well protected. Mine have all come out easily and one axle was a real mess. Undo these first then undo the top bolts.

My (6) axle bracket bolts all came out easily. The thread tops are tucked away from road salt etc so should have no corrosion. Mine have all been good. You can check them one-by-one at any time before starting the job. Unscrew, clean threads, coat end to end with CS-90 and replace.

You might be able to unscrew the spindle studs. Heat the spindle with a hot air gun to 120 C and you should be able to unscrew the studs and not fuss about the nuts. You will need a long reach socket. if the nuts do go tight, stop and drill into a flat with the largest drill that will work without slipping sideways. This will weaken the nut so it can ride over the rusty clag.

The axle is a pain to paint. The cut edges are not smoothed off and it's a big job to properly clean them. But it's worth doing as paint thins out over sharp edges. I put a rubber spring pad on both ends of the springs. It helps the axle and hardy affects ride height.

 

[portland_bill]

'morning PB. Would you say it's more likely that these hub holding studs would be likely to shear or just wind out of the hub? Mine look pretty corroded. Very handy to know I can buy the studs from S4p, thanks for mentioning that.

They are 10mm dia. I put a lot of force on mine, I don't think they'll shear. They are loctited into the hub, so resist coming out.

You will need to fit new rubber bushes to your new axle. Either use a press tool or take them to a garage who has a hydraulic press. Now give the new axle a coat of primer and a few layers of tough paint. NOT Hammerite it's too brittle.

My new axle came with bushes. They are the nylon type, as listed on eBay, Shop4parts, Euro, and every other one I could find. I could not find a source for new rubber bushes, as Fiat did not list them as a separate part.
Do you have a source for the OE type rubber bushes? The nylon ones are significantly harsher ride, and noisier.

The stub axle retaining studs will be rusty and they are almost impossible to clean (poor access). I had two nuts strip and spin leaving a considerable problem to remove them. Consider using HT bolts as replacements.

If using bolts instead of studs, be careful that they do not protrude into the brake area, so do not foul anything rotating. Need to be 10.9 grade. Not stainless, as they are not as strong as 10.9.

Portland Bill, thanks for the info, I cant see a listing on shop4parts for the studs and nuts, would you be able to point me in the right directions please?
Thanks

I've had a search too. I'm sure that's where I got mine, but cannot find the invoice, or emails notifying despatch. Definitely not from a local dealer, so would have come mail order, but records now gone.
OE Part numbers:
Stud: 50703904
Nut: 50701630
I guess Shop4parts have made them non-stock, so would need to email or call them. They'll get them if you ask.

Sorry Bill, forgot to add, I was hoping to slacken the stub axle nuts loose whilst the axle itself was still on the car.
Do you think this would be possible?

Oh yes. You need the axle fixed to the car to resist the leverage you will apply. Otherwise, you'll need an assistant to hold the axle down while you heave and swear at the nuts.