Technical Random cutting out. Grande Punto 1.4 Dynamic

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Technical Random cutting out. Grande Punto 1.4 Dynamic

mikehopper

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Hi my 1.4 Dynamic has started to cut out , it seems to happen at idle when turning the steering wheel.
It's recently had a New battery.
It seems not to do it when I've got City Steering on.
There are no fault codes showing any where on the ecu.

There's no eml lights or anything present.
When it cuts out it takes a few attempts to restart unless I feather the throttle and will then start with a struggle.
Any suggestions of where to look?
 

GrandePunto PL

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Apr 22, 2018
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SEARCH before starting another thread like this.
https://www.google.com/search?q=grande+punto+cutting+out !!!
Cutting out, stalling, non-starters etc. are common problems. Mostly electrical.
Where to look? Besides Google...
At the top of this section (Grande), sticky threads.
https://www.fiatforum.com/grande-punto/424410-grande-punto-faqs.html
https://www.fiatforum.com/grande-punto/89495-recalls-known-fault-issues.html
Plus Grande Guides section. Earthing points (ground), wiring/plugs, alternator, battery, sensors (MAP, temperature), fuel pump.
https://www.fiatforum.com/grande-punto-guides/

PS
No fault codes in the ECU... But there are few other modules (like Steering), you connect to them separately, FES/MES will tell you need "green" or "yellow" adapter (because modules are physically at different CAN lines/pins in the OBD2 plug).

PS2
Why new battery? What about alternator? This is an automotive Holy Trinity: Alternator, Battery, Starter - if one of them fails, other 2 are suffering. Plus connections between them...
 
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eeeno

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Please try changing the main earth lead to the gearbox. Clean the connection. Power steering draws a lot of current. Avoid using city mode.
 
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mikehopper

mikehopper

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OK.

So I've checked battery to chassis, chassis to gearbox leads and installed an additional between them 2 double check.
Cleaned up all contacts with sandpaper to shiny metal. Inc ecu to rocker cover earth.
Used another battery to rule it out as looks like a cheap one..

I've hooked upto MES , no faults in any of the Systems..!

Battery voltage is a steady 13.2 to 13.8

Done phonic wheel learn,
Position sensor and position sensor calibrations. Aswell as Proxy alignment to ensure all nodes are talking to each other..

But it is still cutting out....

It's the air con model so , my last resort is now to source a new alternator, as its been suggested elsewhere it can Spike current and cut the car out.

The strange thing is after it cuts out , it struggles to restart and needs so e throttle to get it started again..

And ideas guys?
 

Rado77

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Mike - you mention that it's not doing when City mode for steering wheel is ON? Is it still really like that?
 
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mikehopper

mikehopper

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Mike - you mention that it's not doing when City mode for steering wheel is ON? Is it still really like that?

Under testing today, it cut out with city button on. Although with gentle throttle, i couldn't get it to stall.
 

eeeno

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While driving the voltage fluctuates between 13.2 - 13.8V? 13.2V is a bit low, but before changing the alternator, you might want to consider changing all the power cables to alternator, starter and power steering.


You say the car does not start without keeping your foot on the accelerator when warm - then you might be looking at another possible fault - air leak somewhere. Check hoses. If it's cranking slower than before - it's because alternator's not providing adequate current to keep the battery charged. You might want to recharge the battery and try again to see if the problem is not occuring.
 
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mikehopper

mikehopper

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While driving the voltage fluctuates between 13.2 - 13.8V? 13.2V is a bit low, but before changing the alternator, you might want to consider changing all the power cables to alternator, starter and power steering.


You say the car does not start without keeping your foot on the accelerator when warm - then you might be looking at another possible fault - air leak somewhere. Check hoses. If it's cranking slower than before - it's because alternator's not providing adequate current to keep the battery charged. You might want to recharge the battery and try again to see if the problem is not occuring.

The volts fluctuation is because at the time of monitoring I was constantly moving the steering wheel to force a stall while viewing the volts, if I just let it idle, it sits at 13.8, only when I'm applying load via the power steering is it fluctuating.

The stall seems to happen less when I've got City on. And won't stall if I've got lights on etc.

Yes it struggles to start after it stalls, otherwise it starts as normal. Not slow in starting, just struggles.

I'll change the cables for starter and alternator power aswell then, but where is the power cable for the power steering? Its on the wiring loom?
 
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mikehopper

mikehopper

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I've looked at the vac hoses and found this one Split. It goes from inlet to pipe to servo. Has splits at each end
 

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mikehopper

mikehopper

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Although this was split, I've replaced the pipe and it still cuts out, and still struggles to restart.

I've replaced the cables to alternator and starter.

Still stalls.

And even stalled twice today on idle with me not even in the car to touch the steering...
 

eeeno

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Have a look at pcv hoses, clean and replace if necessary.


https://www.fiatforum.com/grande-punto-guides/262269-breather-hose-replacement-1-2-1-4-8v.html

There's another one hidden there which goes behind the airbox just above the throttle body. It could be replaced with a fuel hose.


Similar issue:
https://www.fiatforum.com/grande-punto/188176-1-2-active-stalling-inconsistent-idle.html

Also might be worth a try to clean the throttle body and carry out throttle body relearn.


There's other hoses there which may have a leak, like evap system.


Does the engine run poorly when warm? Then you should have a look at crankshaft position sensor and check the function of engine coolant temperature sensor and intake air temperature sensor with obd tool.


I think the engine might be running a little rich - low rpm and stalls - if higher than usual it's running a little lean and may have another leak. Also after fixing the leaks you might want to let the ecu reset itself by taking off the battery negative lead for 30 minutes.


I believe you should suspect a bad alternator if the battery was flat. Also while idling, the battery should supply enough power to keep the car running for short time even if the alternator was not intermittently providing enough current.
 

GrandePunto PL

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Possible scenario. Bad ground/earthing killed (or almost killed) the alternator, which killed the battery (for example one cell is/was dead, shorting intermittently - so voltage drops can spoil the ECU operation).

Other option. There is still bad ground somewhere. Check also the fusebox! Corrosion underneath the fuses/relays.

Another one. Bad sensors (temperatures - coolant and air, pressure - MAP, exhaust - lambda).

Still vacuum leak (massive one, small like EVAP valve or PCV hose will not stall the engine), like bad brake servo.
 
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mikehopper

mikehopper

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Have a look at pcv hoses, clean and replace if necessary.


https://www.fiatforum.com/grande-punto-guides/262269-breather-hose-replacement-1-2-1-4-8v.html

There's another one hidden there which goes behind the airbox just above the throttle body. It could be replaced with a fuel hose.


Similar issue:
https://www.fiatforum.com/grande-punto/188176-1-2-active-stalling-inconsistent-idle.html

Also might be worth a try to clean the throttle body and carry out throttle body relearn.


There's other hoses there which may have a leak, like evap system.


Does the engine run poorly when warm? Then you should have a look at crankshaft position sensor and check the function of engine coolant temperature sensor and intake air temperature sensor with obd tool.


I think the engine might be running a little rich - low rpm and stalls - if higher than usual it's running a little lean and may have another leak. Also after fixing the leaks you might want to let the ecu reset itself by taking off the battery negative lead for 30 minutes.


I believe you should suspect a bad alternator if the battery was flat. Also while idling, the battery should supply enough power to keep the car running for short time even if the alternator was not intermittently providing enough current.

OK. So since last time I've done the following

Replaced both sensors going to inlet manifold (map/maf)
Replaced throttle body with known working one ( and completed throttle relearn)
Replaced fuel pressure regulator
Inspected rear light clusters as are a known issue in fiat punto mk2/b ( there is a repair been made to the wiring on rear passenger side balast with a wire soldered in from before the connection to inside the rear light cluster. It's screwed into the live track inside the housing. But can't see how that would cause an issue now(( it's got the wire soldered in as in the past its melted the pin)))

I thought I had solved the issue after changing so many parts but it still persists..(its just that I didn't let the car get upto operating temp) so when it is upto temp, that's when the issues rear their heads...

Could it be a fuel pump issue?
Or is it an alternator issue?
Could it be a faulty wire in ignition wiring associated with the steering?
Or an Ecu issue....?
Cam Sensor?
Crank sensor?

It only really happens when the car is upto temp

If alternator, What amp do I require for a 1.4 Dynamic 5 door with Aircon ( 5 rib belt)

Any thoughts.
 
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eeeno

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I've been there doing the same thing: Replacing parts by symptom and never fixed the real problem. It's going to be very expensive and of course if you ask here you get the list of most obvious causes but only one is a match. Lots of could bes. Usually ECU will set a code if a sensor is misbehaving.

Crankshaft position sensor should be the first one to suspect when car stalls when warm and only starts when cold.

If you keep foot on the accelerator , it doesn't stall, right? Then somehow it may have something to do with the throttle body. It needs a reset. Dont buy a new tb thought.

Edit: How about engine coolant temperature sensor? Have you checked its readings when warm? If it's just wrong, like never showing engine operating temperature no matter how far u drove, then cooling system may need to be refilled and bled. Check readings again, if no change , replace ect sensor. Ecu may think engine is colder than it is and keep enriching the fuel.
 
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Mike1alike

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Crank sensor?

It only really happens when the car is upto temp

Yes, it could totally be the crankshaft sensor. You can test it to make sure it is. Get it down of the car and mesure voltage with a multimetre between it's pins. And get a wrench (or any other magnetic metal) to the top of the sensor. If you get voltage and it changes in real time as you put the metal next to it it works fine on cold. Then get the sensor hot with a hair dryer or so and mesure the voltage again. If when you put the metal next to it and the voltage is down to 0 (and while cold was not 0) it is a bad sensor and you should replace it. If not, replacing it won't fix the problom.

About the alternator 13.8V is good voltage, you should worry when it drops under that. It could be higher is true, but 13.8 is a working value.

Another possible cause for your problem could be the manifold gaskets, the ones between the manifold and the head, there are one for each cylinder. If those are worn they can make such trouble like the one you are having.
 
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timmycm850

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Hi Guys.

Ive read through all the notes and i would also look at the crank sensor, heat does cause them to change and they are often a culprit, they also dont trigger any EML lights when they dont work.

they are often in exposed areas so the wiring to them is exposed so this needs to be checked too.

Tim
 
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mikehopper

mikehopper

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I've been there doing the same thing: Replacing parts by symptom and never fixed the real problem. It's going to be very expensive and of course if you ask here you get the list of most obvious causes but only one is a match. Lots of could bes. Usually ECU will set a code if a sensor is misbehaving.

Crankshaft position sensor should be the first one to suspect when car stalls when warm and only starts when cold.

If you keep foot on the accelerator , it doesn't stall, right? Then somehow it may have something to do with the throttle body. It needs a reset. Dont buy a new tb thought.

Edit: How about engine coolant temperature sensor? Have you checked its readings when warm? If it's just wrong, like never showing engine operating temperature no matter how far u drove, then cooling system may need to be refilled and bled. Check readings again, if no change , replace ect sensor. Ecu may think engine is colder than it is and keep enriching the fuel.

OK
So engine temp is showing...
I checked the conductivity of the crank sensor. Got a reading of between 0.2 to 0 while moving a spanner to it. If I tapped the sensor it would Spike to 2.4 ish.

So as I had a spare in the spares draw put it on and touch wood it's not stalled yet... I always thought when they failed o a warm/ hot engine it would need to cool down to restart, but not in this case..

I'll keep you updated in a few days , to see if it'll happen again. But usually it's pretty much as it got upto te.p and a few mins driving.
 
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