Technical Problems after Service/Cambelt Change

[Dabster]

Dear Forum Members,

I've been a member and reader for a year or so now, but this is my first post. I'm hoping that some knowledgeable members can offer some advice.

I own a 66 plate Panda Easy 1.2 (my first ever car) which I bought at just under one year old with low mileage. I use it for both short local trips and generally a longer motorway jaunt every month or so - although these longer trips have been less frequent since lockdown. The current mileage is 28K.

The car has been great up to now - no problems at all and drove very nicely. I've looked after it and had it serviced yearly. About four weeks ago I had the car serviced (oil change, new sparkplugs etc.) and also had the cambelt changed as it's now five years old. I went to a local Fiat independent garage which I had used the year previously with no issues and which appeared to have a very good reputation according to online reviews at least.

I picked the car up and drove it about 5 miles home with no problems. The next day after about 20 minutes of driving the car began to bang and shake (I'm assuming this was a misfire) and then lost just about all power - the engine did not rev at all with accelerator input. Is this the ECU putting the car into limp mode? It didn't cut out completely as I could just about crawl along at 2 or 3 mph to get off the main road and park up. I turned the engine off. After a few minute I turned the key again and the car appeared to start fine and did respond to the throttle. I managed to get home which thankfully was only a few minutes away.

The next day I tested the car, but just in the quiet neighbouring streets. It started fine and revved up ok while stationary. After about 10 minutes of driving the engine power cut out again - this time with the engine warning light. I managed to restart and drive it around the corner to my house.

I phone the garage the next day and they came and towed it back. Diagnostics showed that the error codes read as misfires in cylinder 1 and 4. They said that the belt/timing seemed to be ok and that they could not see any other obvious problems. They suggested it's likely to be the coil so I had that changed at a cost of £200.

I went back to collect the car and the misfire/power loss happened again about 100m from the garage. Parked up, restarted and took it back straightway. Misfires in cylinder 1 and 4 errors listed again. They had it for a couple of weeks in the end, but said that they were unable to recreate the faults despite one of the mechanics driving it home in the evenings. Again they said that the cambelt was fitted correctly - I'm assuming that they stripped it down again to check this? - and that the car seemed to be running fine. They said it might have been an ECU issue - but I'm very reluctant to let them start swapping parts without any guarantee it's going to fix the problem. .

In the end I went back and collected it. I've now driven about 10 times over the last couple of weeks. The obvious misfire/loss of power has not returned, however to me it feels that the car is still not right. It's rougher and more uneven at idle and there is a slight but very noticeable constant hesitancy/shake in normal driving. My concern is that the power loss issue will return without warning and I'm reluctant to take it on the long motorway journeys planned for Christmas. I'm also worried that any mis-timing might damage the engine.

I've been reading the cambelt relating posts to try and get some ideas. I'm assuming that the garage would have known if a phonic wheel relearn was required? Is that standard practice when a belt is changed on a panda? If the timing (as they have said) is correct is there anything obvious that could have been damaged or not put back properly which could cause these issues.

I'm thinking of taking it to another garage (possibly a Fiat dealer) for second opinion - it would be great if anyone could offer some pointers before I talk them.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

 

[portland_bill]

If the cambelt was incorrectly fitted, it would create consistent faults, not intermittent. If incorrectly timed, it would just be sluggish all the time. If the phonic relearn had not been done, the engine light would have been on straightaway. I doubt the cambelt fitment is the problem here.

To do the cambelt, they have moved the coils, as I think, even on yours they are mounted on the end of the head, in the way of the cam timing tool. It is likely therefore that the plug leads have been removed from the plugs. Plug leads on these have a short life, and are fragile after a few years. they also grow onto the plugs, making removal without damage dificult. As Fiat specialists, they will know about this, so I'd expect them to have looked carefully at them for this issue.

There are reports of the low voltage connectors to coils and ECU becoming loose in their housings, but this is more often a 1.1 fault on earlier models.

The crank sensor is usually removed, just to prevent inadvertent damage, so could be playing up now, but I would expect that to give an intermittent fault across all cylinders. That this is an intermittent fault, suggests electrical, rather than mechanical. I would have hoped this garage would have gone through a logical diagnosis.
I'm tending towards coil connectors at this time.

 

[mj2k]

Sounds like a coilpack issue to me too (assuming the 1.2 uses individual coilpacks and not a single 'wasted spark' coil), coilpacks do get a bit 'grumpy' with age and misfires with them normally show up when the engine is warm, so if the garage was just testing it on idle or on short runs it wouldn't show up a misfire caused by a coilpack

 

[Popitinpete]

Dear Forum Members,

I've been a member and reader for a year or so now, but this is my first post. I'm hoping that some knowledgeable members can offer some advice.

I own a 66 plate Panda Easy 1.2 (my first ever car) which I bought at just under one year old with low mileage. I use it for both short local trips and generally a longer motorway jaunt every month or so - although these longer trips have been less frequent since lockdown. The current mileage is 28K.

The car has been great up to now - no problems at all and drove very nicely. I've looked after it and had it serviced yearly. About four weeks ago I had the car serviced (oil change, new sparkplugs etc.) and also had the cambelt changed as it's now five years old. I went to a local Fiat independent garage which I had used the year previously with no issues and which appeared to have a very good reputation according to online reviews at least.

I picked the car up and drove it about 5 miles home with no problems. The next day after about 20 minutes of driving the car began to bang and shake (I'm assuming this was a misfire) and then lost just about all power - the engine did not rev at all with accelerator input. Is this the ECU putting the car into limp mode? It didn't cut out completely as I could just about crawl along at 2 or 3 mph to get off the main road and park up. I turned the engine off. After a few minute I turned the key again and the car appeared to start fine and did respond to the throttle. I managed to get home which thankfully was only a few minutes away.

The next day I tested the car, but just in the quiet neighbouring streets. It started fine and revved up ok while stationary. After about 10 minutes of driving the engine power cut out again - this time with the engine warning light. I managed to restart and drive it around the corner to my house.

I phone the garage the next day and they came and towed it back. Diagnostics showed that the error codes read as misfires in cylinder 1 and 4. They said that the belt/timing seemed to be ok and that they could not see any other obvious problems. They suggested it's likely to be the coil so I had that changed at a cost of £200.

I went back to collect the car and the misfire/power loss happened again about 100m from the garage. Parked up, restarted and took it back straightway. Misfires in cylinder 1 and 4 errors listed again. They had it for a couple of weeks in the end, but said that they were unable to recreate the faults despite one of the mechanics driving it home in the evenings. Again they said that the cambelt was fitted correctly - I'm assuming that they stripped it down again to check this? - and that the car seemed to be running fine. They said it might have been an ECU issue - but I'm very reluctant to let them start swapping parts without any guarantee it's going to fix the problem. .

In the end I went back and collected it. I've now driven about 10 times over the last couple of weeks. The obvious misfire/loss of power has not returned, however to me it feels that the car is still not right. It's rougher and more uneven at idle and there is a slight but very noticeable constant hesitancy/shake in normal driving. My concern is that the power loss issue will return without warning and I'm reluctant to take it on the long motorway journeys planned for Christmas. I'm also worried that any mis-timing might damage the engine.

I've been reading the cambelt relating posts to try and get some ideas. I'm assuming that the garage would have known if a phonic wheel relearn was required? Is that standard practice when a belt is changed on a panda? If the timing (as they have said) is correct is there anything obvious that could have been damaged or not put back properly which could cause these issues.

I'm thinking of taking it to another garage (possibly a Fiat dealer) for second opinion - it would be great if anyone could offer some pointers before I talk them.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Hi
Its obviously something the garage has done incorrectly at the time of service/cambelt. Take it back and give them the keys and not accept the car until it is absolutely 100% as it was before. The very fact they are talking ECU problems just goes to show they don't know what they are doing, every poor mechanic when faced with a problem they can't fix automatically point to the ecu, the ecu is very rarely the problem.
Take a step back = the car ran perfect, went into the garage and now it's running poorly, it's 100% something they have done. If it was me I would be giving the car and keys back until its fixed and then contacting trading standards and telling the garage that too. The longer you keep the car the less leverage you have with the garage.
Sounds like they have either got the timing out or have damaged a loom to injectors or coil packs. You mentioned they 'think the timing looks ok', did they strip it all down to check or just assumed?
Keep us posted

 

[Popitinpete]

Sounds like a coilpack issue to me too (assuming the 1.2 uses individual coilpacks and not a single 'wasted spark' coil), coilpacks do get a bit 'grumpy' with age and misfires with them normally show up when the engine is warm, so if the garage was just testing it on idle or on short runs it wouldn't show up a misfire caused by a coilpack

Coil packs usually show they are going bad by misfiring, the op said the miss fire has gone but the car in general runs poorly, possibly could be incorrectly timed back up.or a rubber vaccum/ breather pipe not installed correctly or they have split it.
Car ran 100% before it went in, now runs like a dog since its been worked on. That is something they have done, for a general fault to just so happen a mile down the road after a visit to a garage must be a million to one. I worked in dealers fir 30 years and in all that time I wouldn't trust anyone I worked with to put air in my tyres.
The garage should have checked the car before they handed it over

 

[mj2k]

Coil packs usually show they are going bad by misfiring, the op said the miss fire has gone but the car in general runs poorly, possibly could be incorrectly timed back up.

Indeed they do, but issue can be intermittent and only show up when the coilpacks are warm. Easy way to check for that (I am assuming the 1.2 uses coilpacks still!) would be to swap the 'bad' coilpacks (or is it leads?) for the 'good' ones and see if the fault follows the bad items.

Incorrect timing would have thrown a CEL I'd have expected, would put it in limp mode and cause a consistent fault across all cylinders.

It'd definitely be wise to get it checked over by a different garage (or preferably main agent) though whatever the cause, and if it's anything other than coil packs or plugs (which would be classed as 'wear and tear') the garage which changed the cambelt / caused the fault should be presented with the repair bill.

 

[Popitinpete]

Indeed they do, but issue can be intermittent and only show up when the coilpacks are warm.

Incorrect timing would have thrown a CEL I'd have expected, would put it in limp mode and cause a consistent fault across all cylinders.

Yea definitely something adrift here, the car needs to go back until its sorted, it's 100% happened in their care when in for work. Having a problem by chance having just come out of the garage must be a million to one, give them the car back and the keys until its sorted or as you say get it 'fixed' elsewhere but give the bill to the original garage.

 

[mj2k]

Yea definitely something adrift here, the car needs to go back until its sorted, it's 100% happened in their care when in for work.

Prob better to get someone other than the garage who caused the fault to look it over though - even if they made the engine explode and stuck it back together with sellotape they might still say they couldn't find the fault

 

[Popitinpete]

Prob better to get someone other than the garage who caused the fault to look it over though - even if they made the engine explode and stuck it back together with sellotape they might still say they couldn't find the fault

Having worked in dealers for 30 years that's a yes from me

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I'm in agreement that if it was the belt fitted wrongly - for example a tooth or two out - it would cause a permanent problem, not something which comes and goes. There's a number of electrical connections which have to be undone when doing a belt, The coils/coil pack (whatever), Cam position sensor, maybe the crank sensor, battery (I'm thinking maybe a partially corroded earth strap making intermittent contact? possibly?). If it was needing a phonic wheel relearn it would light the MIL (Malfunction Indicator Light) and not come and go (in my experience). Again I agree that an ECU problem, whilst not impossible, is unlikely. As Popitinpete mentioned above, it's a very convenient "get out" when you just don't really know what's wrong and want the customer to go away - especially when you can say "but we can't do that because it needs to go on the main dealer's computer". If I had to make book on this one I think it very likely that there's a connector plug, earth point or other part of the electrics like a coil pack or an internal break in a wire which was disturbed, which is at the root of this problem. Generally it's a good idea to let the garage who carried out the original work to do any rectifications needed but, from what you're telling us, it sounds like your garage has exhausted their ingenuity on this one and I'd be a bit worried that they might actually cause more damage or cost you a lot of money if you let them go at it willy nilly. For instance having fitted new coils and possibly other components before finding the connector is actually at the root of the problem it's only too easy to claim it needed the coil and sensor - which cost a lot - and say nothing about the faulty connector - which costs just a couple of quid! Because the car is now running well you've no idea whether it needed all those parts or not. Might be a good candidate for an auto electrical specialist if your garage is throwing in the towel?

 

[KPat]

"Diagnostics showed that the error codes read as misfires in cylinder 1 and 4."
Definately points to a coil pack issue. Possibly the input plug connector. There are two input signals that fire cylinders 1 and 4, then 2 and 3 simultaniously.

 

[Dabster]

Thanks everyone for their replies so far - it's really appreciated. I'm going to take it into another garage for a second opinion later this morning. Hopefully if it turns out to be a simple electrical connection issue with the plug leads etc. they can get it sorted this week. I'll let you know how I get on.

 

[mj2k]

Good luck

 

[Popitinpete]

Thanks everyone for their replies so far - it's really appreciated. I'm going to take it into another garage for a second opinion later this morning. Hopefully if it turns out to be a simple electrical connection issue with the plug leads etc. they can get it sorted this week. I'll let you know how I get on.

Hi, how did you get on?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Hi, how did you get on?

Ditto?

 

[timmycm850]

Fill us in

 

[chris3234]

I'd be getting a phonic wheel relearn carried out again regardless as it won't do any harm ad it seem strange the issues happened right after changing the belt

 

[Popitinpete]

I'd be getting a phonic wheel relearn carried out again regardless as it won't do any harm ad it seem strange the issues happened right after changing the belt

Yes my thoughts exactly, running great until it went in then running poor afterwards.

 

[jrkitching]

Posts from folks who are having problems with rough running after cambelt changes appear here with depressing regularity.

I don't buy the phonic wheel relearn argument; valve timing is mechanical and unless the relative orientation of the camshaft & crankshaft has changed there's nothing to relearn.

I'd say the most likely cause of these problems is that the engine hasn't been timed correctly after the belt was changed; no amount of software relearning will fix that and it's necessary to get the spanners out.

There's a well-documented official procedure for changing the belt, which, let's just say, isn't exactly standard workshop practice and absolutely needs the proper timing tools. Half the DIY mechanics and independent garages changing belts don't know this procedure, and half of those who do think they know better and do it some other way. From what's been posted here, sometimes these other ways work, and sometimes they don't.

My advice to anyone suffering running issues after a cambelt change is either to buy the proper tools and reset the timing as described in eLearn, or take it somewhere that has the appropriate tools, knowledge, and the will to use both.

This is one of the few instances where I'd actually recommend those without the necessary skills & facilities to take the car to a franchised dealer.

 

[Panda IIs]

Posts from folks who are having problems with rough running after cambelt changes appear here with depressing regularity.

I don't buy the phonic wheel relearn argument; valve timing is mechanical and unless the relative orientation of the camshaft & crankshaft has changed there's nothing to relearn.

I'd say the most likely cause of these problems is that the engine hasn't been timed correctly after the belt was changed; no amount of software relearning will fix that and it's necessary to get the spanners out.

There's a well-documented official procedure for changing the belt, which, let's just say, isn't exactly standard workshop practice and absolutely needs the proper timing tools. Half the DIY mechanics and independent garages changing belts don't know this procedure, and half of those who do think they know better and do it some other way. From what's been posted here, sometimes these other ways work, and sometimes they don't.

My advice to anyone suffering running issues after a cambelt change is either to buy the proper tools and reset the timing as described in eLearn, or take it somewhere that has the appropriate tools, knowledge, and the will to use both.

This is one of the few instances where I'd actually recommend those without the necessary skills & facilities to take the car to a franchised dealer.

Sound advice I would say. I'm not familiar with the 1.2 engine (TA man myself) but my other cars that do use 'belts have fairly obvious timing marks on the respective pulleys which would enable an initial inspection and diagnosis if this is indeed the problem. Given the criticality of a timing belt change I would HOPE that whoever did the work would at least get the marks aligned. Having checked that then I would look for connectors that have not been properly attached.