Police - New Driver Scheme - Opinions Needed

[blebo]

I apologise for the length of this post but I really need to hear other people’s views on this subject as it is something I am seriously thinking about proposing to the senior management at my work.

As you know I am a Police Officer and I am serious about increasing driver ability and reducing road deaths and injuries.

I am basing what I am proposing on how I used to feel when I was a young driver and what I know now that I am a Police officer.

Q1. How to you feel when you hear about schemes launched by the government to re habilitate criminals? The one that sticks in my mind was several years ago a bunch of TWOCers were given cash to set up and run a racing team, whilst honest, law abiding me could barley afforded to run my “get to work” car and racing was something I dreamt of at night


Q2 what is the general opinion amongst the masses in relation to the standard of Police Drivers. I am not talking about years ago as the training has changed in the last five or so a year which means that all Officers are trained to advanced level to be a response driver (lights and sirens). `How would young driver feels about being given the change to learn advanced driving skills by a trained police driver. I.e. advanced corning, observation overtaking etc.

Q3 what is the general view of the IAM (institute of advanced motorists). Is this still viewed as old folk with flat caps and driving gloves?

Q4. As a young car enthusiast what is more important, the way your car looks or driving fast?

Q5 Do you drivers feel that the majority are being let down by the minority. I.e. one or two bad “Boy Racers” are resulting in all young drivers being classed as hooligans. If so if there was a way for you to prove that you were a better driver would you do it?


Q6 (The proposal)

Depending on the answers given above I am proposing to create a driving club for the local area. It will be run by the police however Police involvement would be minimal as it would be a DRIVING club.

Entry would be based on a strict set of rules along the lines of

Drivers aged 17 – 21 (25?)
No penalty points on licence (may be increased to 3 if required)
Full membership granted after completion of advanced test
Discount on insurance for club members (still to be negotiated but should be good due to strict membership criteria)
Discounts from local car stores (same as above)
Organised track/club days/events
Holidays to “the Ring”etc

I would be hoping to get some really big discounts by using the fact that it was a Police run thing and due to the membership criteria only safe drivers need apply.

The ides behind it is to reward good behaviour and punish bad, (the way it should be) making the scheme a desirable thing to be involved in and possibly something to be proud of.

There would of course be a whole social scene accompanying this i.e. forum etc.

There would be a joining fee payable probably around £100 mark

I know it’s a bit hypothetical at the moment but I can’t negotiate discounts etc on behalf of the Police until I get the nod from management but at the same time I could really use some feed back to see if people would go for it!!

Thanks for taking the time to read

 

[jug]

Q1. rewarding bad behaviour is disgusting and achieves nothing.

Q2 some cops are good drivers others arent, regardless of training. its much the same as people. that is no coincidence since cops are people. if i was going to some training i'd go to a race track and get taught by someone who raced professionally, not by a cop.

Q3 no its not old folk any more, that was the 80s, now its extinct. i bet most of the young ones havent even heard of it.

Q4. both. it should look like it goes and go like it looks.

Q5 as always a minority create a problem for the majority. proof would be great, but its currently not possible to do that, certainly not in any recognised way.

Q6 many boyracers like breaking rules and driving like tits, its 'cool' so you wont get them interested, even when they listen you wont be saying anything they want to hear. the good or safe young drivers tend not to care much about driving so you'll have difficulty getting them interested.

i'm sure boyracers would like the training, the confidence boost would help them believe they can go faster on public roads. i cant see safe drivers caring.

 

[Hellcat]

Ok so I'm drifting into the older driver group but I feel I can help with your questions.

Q1. As with most schemes for convicted criminals, what's the point in doing good and abiding the law when it gets you nothing?

Q2. Think a lot of police drive above the speed limit on a day-to-day basis. This re-enforces the idea that it's not a safety reason for speed cameras etc but a revenue machine - especially when it's so easy to do.

Q3. If it doesn't save you serious money on car insurance then what's the point? Many do pass plus as it can save quite a bit.

Q4. The way it drives. Doesn't need to go fast to be fun.

Q5. A :tosser: is a :tosser: In a car or not. Rather everyone was treat equally until there was just cause for treating them different. e.g. flat insurance rate regardless of sex/age until you do something stupid.

Q6. If something like that was available then I'm sure you'd get interest. Problem is who's going to pay for the kids who don't cause trouble?

 

[dannygp]

1. No comment.

2. Would be very good, but might give people ideas on the road, causing dangerous driving.

3. I say yes-ish. I would like to be a part of it to get rid of some bad habits.

4. I like a nice looking car, but would love a fast car aswell. No1 can say they don't want a fast car. Something like this gives the opportunity to not be bothered about a fast, dangerous car for on the roads.

5. I feel let down. Deffo would do something. Just did a Corporate driver training day for my work. Hopefully get insured. (They say 24years old with min of 4 years experience. I'm 20 with 3 years experience. Need something that would 100% allow me or others to drive under the usual company insurance age of 21. Such as police training.)

6. Holidays to “the Ring”etc HELL YES!

All in all a great idea. Would be good to have them in every city eventually.

 

[jug]

flat insurance rate regardless of sex/age until you do something stupid.

that goes against the whole idea of risk assessment, which is the very basis of all insurance. it'll never happen.

 

[steve1219]

Seems a good idea

But think it is to 'elitist'

No penalty points on license ( Speeding points are to easy now adays ) - Surely should be aiming at those that need guidance

joining fee payable probably around £100 mark - most people are struggling to keep their vehicles on the road as it is, especially in the age group you are aiming for.

Will not give my answers to your questions as they are aimed at the young drivers LOL

Steve

 

[Vedran]

Yer i think that would be realy good now i just a question would you be able to get that going.

Answer to Q2:
I personaly love the sound of that coz it would help out most of the drivers that think thay can drive and that but realy cant lol and mayb if they are shown how to drive overtake and take the corners it prob would reduce the amount of dangers driving coused by young drivers.

Anyway that my personal view and if they would get cheeper insurance with doing this then it would attract lots of young drivers.

 

[Hellcat]

that goes against the whole idea of risk assessment, which is the very basis of all insurance. it'll never happen.

They've all proven to be crap at risk management (American Sub-prime mortgage market) so sack the lot and start again.

 

[johnw]

I am a JP and work for the NHS , anything that keeps young drivers out of court and/or casualty has to be a good idea.



Q1 Not a good idea. Encourage them before they get a record - not afterwards.

Q2&3 Problem is the young drivers I deal with are not interested in improving their driving skills, as far as they are concerned they are perfect already.

Have a look at the ROSPA advanced driving scheme, its a lot less stuffy than the IAM, my last examiner was less than half my age. Unlike the IAM (unless the IAM have changed) the ROSPA test gives a graded pass - gold, silver or bronze. i do it every 3 years and learn something every time.They have a young driver scheme which gives a discount if 5 or more sign up together.

Q4 not a young driver any more.

Q5 the death rate for under 25 drivers speaks for itself. Problem is getting any driver - of any age - to accept that they could be better at it if only they would put in some effort.

Q6 I wish you luck. Try contacting the local JPs. There is a scheme called magistrates in the community (MIC) which may be able to provide a few JPs to help out.

 

[ScoobyChris]

That's an interesting idea and there are already a few clubs out there which offer similar to what you're proposing (although the police officers are "off duty" or retired). The two that come to mind are http://www.clubdriving.co.uk/, http://www.john-lyon.co.uk/index.htm and www.hpc.org.uk . I'm a member of the last one.

I've been trying to encourage people to take up advanced driving for the last couple of years but the two things which seem to cause reluctance are that people a) don't think they're good enough and b) think it's all "wheel shuffling". Easy enough to dispel with a demo drive, but it's a hurdle to overcome before people commit and part with their cash.

I think the big problem with having Police backing is that you cannot be seen to allow any breaking of the law, eg speeding, not stopping at a stop sign, etc, and going fast is what most of the young'uns I've coached seem to want to do.

Good luck - will be interesting to hear what they say

Chris

 

[RichDoblo120]

Q2; I don't think the standard of police drivers is any better than the average non-police driver.
Why do police drivers seem to think they are super human? They are not.
Just because they've had a bit of extra training with things like high speed pursuits they think they are superman.

If a so called highly trained police driver is travelling at high speed down the outside of a queue of traffic and someone walks from behind a van or a lorry, they are going to run down and kill that person just the same as any other driver would do.

If anything, I find police drivers to be slightly worse than the average driver because they seem to think that the training they've received makes their reactions faster. It doesn't. They are the same person they were before they were a copper, with the same reactions.

Did anyone see the 5th gear with Tiff Needell timed on a track against a pursuit cop?
Of course Tiff thrashed him but it was laughable. The cop was push-pull steering and insisting that you should never brake and clutch at the same time. What a joke. This is just IAM style driving, not real world driving.

Rant over.

 

[goneleft]

I thinks thats a great idea. I remember when I did my GCSEs there was a scheme at my college for the "underacheiving" kids to learn practical skills such as mechanical skills etc. and I always wanted to do it to but as I was an avergae student I had to follow the cirriculum.

So it would definately be good to see something that rewards good behaviour.

As to the idea of boy racers ruining it for others I dont think its really boy racers. I'm 18 and I have friends who just don't really give a sh#t about how they drive. It mainly the people who's parents pay for there cars and insurance so they have no real responsibility for it. They laugh and joke about near misses in the pub, where if something like that happens to me it'll play on my mind all day.

And it would deffinately be great to learn some advance driving skills.

 

[ScoobyChris]

The cop was push-pull steering and insisting that you should never brake and clutch at the same time. What a joke. This is just IAM style driving, not real world driving.

It's Roadcraft driving, rather than Racecraft. Do the same pursuit down a crowded High Street and see the difference Out of interest, what is your opinion of police drivers based on?

Chris

 

[Venters]

Q1.
It boils my ****.

Q2
Although I don't believe the standard of police driving to be any worse than the norm. I certainly don't believe they are in general good enough to dish out lesson and advice on advanced driving.
Advanced driving lesson should be left to the advanced driving instructors.

Q3
As already said above. I think the majority of young drivers have proberly never heard of it.

Q4.
Both. A sleeper won't make you smile when you boot up your PC and see it there as your wallpaper, and bodykits on 1.4 C segment cars are pointless.

Q5
No. As you know I'm from your area. You don't want to be labeled a hooligan you only visit the prom at night to go to Pizzaboy.

Q6
Rewarding good behaviour and punishing bad is fine for teaching toddlers how to behave. But these people are adults. A reward should not be required to behave in a socially acceptable manner. Punishment is always good though. I've seen the size of that compound round the back of the station acrss from the college. I'm pretty sure someone driving like a tit on a Friday that then had their car impounded till Monday morning would think twice next time.

 

[Helz]

Here's what they do round here:
Roadsafe link, Roadsafe link 2 (spot my car in the 2nd one)

The police and fire services organise nights every six months or so: the information you get varies and has included some information from Roadcraft presented by police drivers, DVDs of crashes/ victims, presentations by IAM and getting victims out of cars. It's usually only the careful drivers who go to these IME. As admin on a local cruise site, we also work with the police where possible in promoting and attending these events and having them approve and attend our events. A flashy new Evo always generates a little attention

 

[johnw]

Did anyone see the 5th gear with Tiff Needell timed on a track against a pursuit cop?
Of course Tiff thrashed him but it was laughable. The cop was push-pull steering and insisting that you should never brake and clutch at the same time. What a joke. This is just IAM style driving, not real world driving.

Thats not comparing like with like. Race drivers know for sure there won't be any pedestrians walking out, there will be nothing coming the other way, the marshals will warn if there is anything in the road around the next bend, there is nothing to hit if you spin off and the other drivers are all of a similar standard.

To be any good as a racing driver you have to be at the very limits of what the vehicle can achieve which would not be safe on the public roads. You also have to be prepared to rebuild the engine rather more frequently than most of us would like.

If race style driving was effective and safe on the road its what police drivers would be trained to do. I took the ROSPA advanced course and was tested by a police driver. I passed at gold standard. After my test the examiner took me for a drive. My driving was no where near as good as his. He had too much mechanical sympathy and awareness of other road users to be any good as a race driver, but it was the safest i have ever felt as a passenger on the roads.

 

[arseofbox]

Q1. I dont believe in rehabilitation through reward

Q2 I think on the whole Police driving standards are good, Id love to learn the skills youre taught

Q3 "Is this still viewed as old folk with flat caps and driving gloves?"...yes, but the skills are nonetheless valid, although impossible to implement in some cars I understand. Not something Id do as I believe in the controlled use of the speed limit, which goes against IAM policy

Q4. Id drive a grey metal shoebox if it hit the technical specification. Looks are to a point secondary - hence why I adore the Volvo V70 T5

Q5 The opposite. IME The bulk of drivers out there are a liability and should be stopped - a mandatory retest every 5 years would see to that IMO. Theres a difference between how youre taught to drive and what is acceptably safe on the road - making the transition (to the limit of acceptability) is the hard bit, and its something people seem to either miss massively or just go nowhere near - there should be another test for access to the motorway.

Q6 Depends on your scope - Id suggest that road rallys and cruises might go against policy a bit, but something organised into a proper structure may do quite well.

 

[ScoobyChris]

Q3 "Is this still viewed as old folk with flat caps and driving gloves?"...yes, but the skills are nonetheless valid, although impossible to implement in some cars I understand. Not something Id do as I believe in the controlled use of the speed limit, which goes against IAM policy

The skills are transferable to every car and they focus more on thinking and planning skills than car control specifics. The speed limit issue is a very small part of the IAM course and I think the benefits of doing the course far outweigh the pain of religiously obeying the speed limit for 10 hours of driving. In fact, the way the course is taught enables you to decide on a safe speed, irrespective of the prevailing limit....

Chris

 

[matthew.raine]

Q2;
Did anyone see the 5th gear with Tiff Needell timed on a track against a pursuit cop?
Of course Tiff thrashed him but it was laughable. The cop was push-pull steering and insisting that you should never brake and clutch at the same time. What a joke. This is just IAM style driving, not real world driving.

Rant over.

Surely the idea of police pursuit driving isn't being able to thrash the T5 around corners as hard as you can, it's about driving at high speed in urban or dense-traffic scenarios?

 

[ScoobyChris]

is a good example of a 999 training run....

Chris