Technical Panda 4x4 TA non starter after being stood

[Project 192]

Just a quick question our Fiat Panda has been stood for a few months, I usually start it up every couple of weeks and give it a full warm up, except this time I left it for maybe a couple months or 3!!
Now I can tell the battery is slightly lower voltage than normal as the central locking sounds a little less keen to open.
It turns over but clearly with no like normal engine turning over sound ie just spinning!
I'm guessing either low voltage or low oil pressure in the Twinair unit which relies on oil pressure to acctuate the intake valves.

Only tried to spin it over a couple of times, didn't want to draim the battery any further!
Do I persist in cranking it to get the oil pressure back up or try putting some charge in the battery or even attach a boost pack?
Is there a specific method to prime the oil into the Twinair unit?

Everything was fine prior to leaving it, so I doubt it is anything else and like I said I have been turning it over periodically, just not this last time!

 

[A3jeroen]

I think there is no harm in charging the battery first.

gr J

 

[chris3234]

Charge battery up and connect to another car with jump cables to ensure max voltage also worth giving the battery clams and earth's a clean to help the starter spin as fast as possible to build the required oil pressure up

 

[Project 192]

Is it ok to trickle charge the battery in situ, without disconnecting it? As I don't want to lose the radio code or reset the ECU or change anything else that might introduce another issue, as it is I know it was running fine and the only possible cause can be low voltage and the uniair module losing oil pressure.

 

[jrkitching]

so I doubt it is anything else

I'm thinking fuel. The shelf life of petrol containing ethanol is said to be "up to 3 months" (my italics). If it's been in the tank for longer than that, it may have deteriorated to the point where it affects starting. Running the engine from time to time obviously won't stop the fuel ageing.

Once you do get it running, I'd suggest you switch to super unleaded for the first 3-4 tankfuls. Esso synergy supreme+ is supposedly ethanol free in many parts of the UK (see the Esso website for more details), and contains twice the detergent of the standard grade.

And for anyone planning to lay up a car for more than a month, I'd suggest doing the same before taking it off the road.

I don't want to lose the radio code

Provided the radio is the original one fitted in the factory, you don't lose the radio code when the battery is disconnected. A copy of the code is also stored in the car's body computer.

Is it ok to trickle charge the battery in situ, without disconnecting it?

Yes, provided you follow the instructions in the handbook if S/S is fittted. Basically positive charger lead to positive battery terminal, negative charger lead to separate earthing post near battery (or, better, a secure earth point on the chassis). Never connect a charger directly across the battery terminals on any car equipped with S/S.

The best way to revive a battery that's been left unused for awhile is to remove it from the car, attach a good quality intelligent charger, and use the reconditioning function. If the car is more than four years old and the battery is original, I'd suggest just replacing it.

 

[Project 192]

I'm thinking fuel. The shelf life of petrol containing ethanol is said to be "up to 3 months" (my italics). If it's been in the tank for longer than that, it may have deteriorated to the point where it affects starting. Running the engine from time to time obviously won't stop the fuel ageing.

Once you do get it running, I'd suggest you switch to super unleaded for the first 3-4 tankfuls. Esso synergy supreme+ is supposedly ethanol free in many parts of the UK (see the Esso website for more details), and contains twice the detergent of the standard grade.

And for anyone planning to lay up a car for more than a month, I'd suggest doing the same before taking it off the road.



Provided the radio is the original one fitted in the factory, you don't lose the radio code when the battery is disconnected. A copy of the code is also stored in the car's body computer.



Yes, provided you follow the instructions in the handbook if S/S is fittted. Basically positive charger lead to positive battery terminal, negative charger lead to separate earthing post near battery (or, better, a secure earth point on the chassis). Never connect a charger directly across the battery terminals on any car equipped with S/S.

The best way to revive a battery that's been left unused for awhile is to remove it from the car, attach a good quality intelligent charger, and use the reconditioning function. If the car is more than four years old and the battery is original, I'd suggest just replacing it.

Thanks for the info, much appreciated.
Just to confirm, the new E10 fuel is not a factor in this, as I've never put any in it! It was last filled with E5 and started every couple of weeks.
I doubt very much the fuel has gone off as it is absolute max been left 3 months, definitely no longer, my other car with same fuel was left almost 11 months and started 1st turn of the key after charging the battery up!

I'll stick my booster pack on it later today and see what happens.

I definitely feel it is related to the low oil pressure in the uniair unit ie no oil to operate the intake valves rather than anything else, as it is spinning over fine and I can tell there is no coughing or splutter or any hint of it starting.
I just assumed there was a procedure to re establish oil pressure back into the valve system or does cranking it just do that?
I thought if there was no oil pressure the ECU shuts off fuel and spark as a precaution?
That's what my engine feels like as it is spinning.

 

[chris3234]

Thanks for the info, much appreciated.
Just to confirm, the new E10 fuel is not a factor in this, as I've never put any in it! It was last filled with E5 and started every couple of weeks.
I doubt very much the fuel has gone off as it is absolute max been left 3 months, definitely no longer, my other car with same fuel was left almost 11 months and started 1st turn of the key after charging the battery up!

I'll stick my booster pack on it later today and see what happens.

I definitely feel it is related to the low oil pressure in the uniair unit ie no oil to operate the intake valves rather than anything else, as it is spinning over fine and I can tell there is no coughing or splutter or any hint of it starting.
I just assumed there was a procedure to re establish oil pressure back into the valve system or does cranking it just do that?
I thought if there was no oil pressure the ECU shuts off fuel and spark as a precaution?
That's what my engine feels like as it is spinning.

If there isn't enough oil pressure the vales don't even operate let alone fuel and spark henec why it sounds so odd when spinning over

 

[varesecrazy]

Is it in a position where you can couple jumplead : booster cables from a running car ?

That is going to be your bestcase scenario for getting thr Uniair functioning again..

Might take a fair bit of cranking..( in 15 second bursts to get the starter motor warm..not hot) so a running alternator keeping up with your twinairs load could be far better than just draining your own, low battery, once more.

My 2012 TA .. SAT for months at a time over lockdowns.. thankfully started well.. on the 2012 build battery.

 

[Project 192]

Is it in a position where you can couple jumplead : booster cables from a running car ?

That is going to be your bestcase scenario for getting thr Uniair functioning again..

Might take a fair bit of cranking..( in 15 second bursts to get the starter motor warm..not hot) so a running alternator keeping up with your twinairs load could be far better than just draining your own, low battery, once more.

My 2012 TA .. SAT for months at a time over lockdowns.. thankfully started well.. on the 2012 build battery.

It is in a good position to get my running car right in front but I can't find my jump leads! Not needed them for years!
Best bet is my booster pack which is currently being topped up, fingers crossed.

 

[varesecrazy]

Good luck !! Let us know what you find

 

[timmycm850]

Note. Turn the ignition on and let the fuel pump fully prime and pressurise the fuel rail.

Ie turn the ignition on and listen for a quiet wiring that should stop after 10 to 15 seconds

Tim

 

[varesecrazy]

Good point Tim

Lack of rail pressure may well stop injection..

But lots of cranking should still get fuel circulating

 

[Project 192]

Note. Turn the ignition on and let the fuel pump fully prime and pressurise the fuel rail.

Ie turn the ignition on and listen for a quiet wiring that should stop after 10 to 15 seconds

Tim

Appreciate your comment. I've been turning on the ignition for a few seconds, a couple of times, prior to cranking it, just in case any loss of fuel pressure in the fuel rail has occurred but I knew fuel wasn't the issue here.
So after topping up my booster pack for most of today, I connected it up but first I gave it one last crank in the hope maybe yesterday enough oil got drawn up into the uniair system to prime it and my battery had recovered enough to fire it up but clearly my battery was struggling even more.
My booster pack barely gave me any more cranking power than I had yesterday, so I was not filled with confidence it would start.
Gave it a longish crank 5 or 6 secs, nothing.....
Heart sinking moment, starting to imagine expensive diagnostic and repair bills!
Waited a moment and gave it a 2nd long crank, halfway through that, a reassuring splutter, like it was coughing on one cylinder, kept up the cranking with a touch of throttle and she started up like a champ!
A fair bit of relief, gave it a full warm up before taking it for a run.
Lessons learned!!
1. Don't leave your Panda stood for 3 months!
2. My earth connection on the battery has a quick release disconnect, in hindsight I should have just disconnected that!
3. The uniair system loses it's oil pressure after 3 months, be warned!
4. Just realised how much I miss driving my Panda!

Like I mentioned earlier in this thread I haven't used any of this new E10 fuel in my Panda as it was laid up since before August and had plenty of regular unleaded E5 in the tank.
Just topped it up with premium unleaded E5 won't be using that E10 in this car as it has ruined the economy in our other car and took the edge off performance!
The little twinair engine needs every bit of help in that department, so it will be interesting to see if mpg improves making this switch.

Thanks for all the help, appreciate all the input. I was just concerned there might be a specific procedure to follow in order to get oil pressure back in the uniair system and didn't want to damage anything.

 

[varesecrazy]

Good news

 

[gar074]

I had this same problem with my TA last winter - difficulty starting after long periods left standing. Mine displayed the same symptoms - engine turning over OK on the starter, but not firing until, after several long pulls, it reluctantly spluttered into life, misfiring at first but then running fine.

Initially I put it down to the frosty weather (fuel starvation caused by water vapour freezing in the fuel lines) but then it happened when the temperature was above freezing, so it clearly wasn't that.

An oil change cured it - the garage said that TAs are prone to this if left standing, especially if the oil level is a bit low and/or the oil is old (which mine was).

The explanation given in this thread (the uniair system losing pressure leading to the ECU shutting off the fuel supply) makes total sense of the symptoms my car was showing.

All is fine now - it's started on the first pull every time, even on frosty mornings.

 

[Project 192]

I had this same problem with my TA last winter - difficulty starting after long periods left standing. Mine displayed the same symptoms - engine turning over OK on the starter, but not firing until, after several long pulls, it reluctantly spluttered into life, misfiring at first but then running fine.

Initially I put it down to the frosty weather (fuel starvation caused by water vapour freezing in the fuel lines) but then it happened when the temperature was above freezing, so it clearly wasn't that.

An oil change cured it - the garage said that TAs are prone to this if left standing, especially if the oil level is a bit low and/or the oil is old (which mine was).

The explanation given in this thread (the uniair system losing pressure leading to the ECU shutting off the fuel supply) makes total sense of the symptoms my car was showing.

All is fine now - it's started on the first pull every time, even on frosty mornings.

Mine usually starts first turn of the key without issue no matter how cold it gets in winter, the battery still looks original and has plenty of cranking power normally, just being laid up for over 6 months with minimal charging is not a great idea!
Mine has regular oil and filter changes and never gets low on oil, the pressure only holds in the uniair system for so long, plus my battery had got very low.

It would have been better to have another running car to connect jumper cables to, that would have made starting it a lot easier, just couldn't find my cables!