Technical Panda 30 question

[deckwood]

I may or may not have found myself a panda head, it is just the head with original valves and springs still installed, no obvious cracks between valves.
Just have a few questions for anyone with experience with panda 30 heads on a 126 base.

Is the panda 30 rocker arm the same as a 126 rocker arm?
Are there any hidden traps in installing this head, apart from the obvious tinware issues. That is, am i going to need to buy any other panda parts like push rods etc?

looking to slowly get parts together for a new build project.

 

[Toshi 975]

I may or may not have found myself a panda head, it is just the head with original valves and springs still installed, no obvious cracks between valves.
Just have a few questions for anyone with experience with panda 30 heads on a 126 base.

Is the panda 30 rocker arm the same as a 126 rocker arm?
Are there any hidden traps in installing this head, apart from the obvious tinware issues. That is, am i going to need to buy any other panda parts like push rods etc?

looking to slowly get parts together for a new build project.

Rockers & push rods are all the same but you will need a set of the short Panda 30 push rod tubes.

 

[deckwood]

Rockers & push rods are all the same but you will need a set of the short Panda 30 push rod tubes.

thanks mate

 

[Toshi 975]

thanks mate

I forgot to say well done on actually finding a Panda 30 cylinder head these days, they are not easy to come by. If you can get the studs that secure the rockers at the same time that is a bonus as they are basically M8 but have an M10 threaded end where they screw into the head. In years gone by some guys reshaped the external profile of a Panda 30 head so they could still use the existing tinware but not heard of that for a while.

 

[the hobbler]

I forgot to say well done on actually finding a Panda 30 cylinder head these days, they are not easy to come by. If you can get the studs that secure the rockers at the same time that is a bonus as they are basically M8 but have an M10 threaded end where they screw into the head. In years gone by some guys reshaped the external profile of a Panda 30 head so they could still use the existing tinware but not heard of that for a while.

The 'long' push-rod tubes (from the crankcase up to the underside of the head) are VERY difficult to find. I am putting a Panda30 head onto the '695' engine that I am building up. I have got round the push-rod tube problem by using adjustable VW tubes and having some small machining carried out. Happy to let you know what the 'machining' is if you wish to contact me direct.

 

[Bleeding Knuckles]

Hi DW, Can you tell me what date stamp is on your head? It will look like a clock face with the last two numbers of the year in the middle and the month indicated by a line on the clock face at the month of manufacture???? Has the head been skimmed or modified in any way and are you sure that there is NO cracking between the valves of both cylinders??? The reason I ask is that I have done a lot of work with these heads and it is best to know exactly where you are before using the head or modifying it. The year is particularly relevant because the number of valve stem seals changes with later versions, as "The Hobbler" states if you do not have the lower pushrod tubes you will either have to modify the head to accept longer versions or you can obtain new ones, but they are expensive!!! Final question does your head have the upper tubes fitted and can you tell if the side of the head by the exhaust ports - has been cut or modified in any way as this will determine how you go about fitting the cooling tinware.
Ian.

 

[deckwood]

Hi DW, Can you tell me what date stamp is on your head? It will look like a clock face with the last two numbers of the year in the middle and the month indicated by a line on the clock face at the month of manufacture???? Has the head been skimmed or modified in any way and are you sure that there is NO cracking between the valves of both cylinders??? The reason I ask is that I have done a lot of work with these heads and it is best to know exactly where you are before using the head or modifying it. The year is particularly relevant because the number of valve stem seals changes with later versions, as "The Hobbler" states if you do not have the lower pushrod tubes you will either have to modify the head to accept longer versions or you can obtain new ones, but they are expensive!!! Final question does your head have the upper tubes fitted and can you tell if the side of the head by the exhaust ports - has been cut or modified in any way as this will determine how you go about fitting the cooling tinware.
Ian.

Hi Ian, I havent purchased yet as was not sure how much extra I was up for, but will get it after reading the replies. Upper tubes still installed, as are the rocker studs, no mods carried out just a used original. I cannot see the year on the head, is it on the exhaust port side? on both sides or just one? This one on the rear side does have STAB stamped into it, if that means anything?
I was aware of the pushrod issue, and will mod for the VW tubes as the hobbler stated.

 

[the hobbler]

Hi Ian, I havent purchased yet as was not sure how much extra I was up for, but will get it after reading the replies. Upper tubes still installed, as are the rocker studs, no mods carried out just a used original. I cannot see the year on the head, is it on the exhaust port side? on both sides or just one? This one on the rear side does have STAB stamped into it, if that means anything?
I was aware of the pushrod issue, and will mod for the VW tubes as the hobbler stated.

When you pull the short push-rod tubes (in the head) out you will see that there is a seal in a groove where the tube sits---I expect that these will be very hard and not a good seal. They need to be carefully removed, the groove for them cleaned out and the seals replaced with '0' rings. I have a couple of drawings for the final measurements required for the VW pushrod tubes (each is in 2 parts). The tubes can be purchased from "Megabug" and if you ask nicely, they will sell you just 5 (normally 8 in a kit).
Be aware, there aren't many inlet manifolds commercially available for the Panda30 head. I made one for a friend so that he can run his Panda30 head with a Dellorto FZD bolted to it (runs nicely). Ian (Bleeding Knuckles) has more experience than I have as to what carb/manilfold to use (Dellorto/Solex 35s---much lighter and better suited to the 500 engine than the big Webers) on the Panda30 head. I have made a manifold so that I can use a 34IHC (single Weber downdraught---same size as Abarth used, Solex 34PBIC) on the head, but it was a real faff!
Look after those rocker-shaft studs---the Panda30 is the only 500/126 derived engine that uses that size of stud. I had to get one (expensively) made as I could NOT find a supplier.
For valve-seals, my head has 'proper' seals on just the inlet valves---it would seem that 'Elring, part number:-- 195/925)are just about correct. Hope all this helps

 

[Bleeding Knuckles]

Hi DW, There are recesses in the top deck of the head and in one of them will be the date stamp, I think mine were in the centre. The MINIMUM work I recommend without any skimming is to have the head stripped and cleaned, check the valve guides for wear and valve stems too. Replace any seals both inlet and exhaust if you have both fitted. Check and regrind the valve seats (at the same time check for cracks between valves with good crack detector fluid - don't rely on a visual check) Check the rocker assembly fitment posts for security. Replace the valve springs (standard items will do) Check rocker arms for wear. Removing the upper tubes is difficult, but you can obtain new lower tubes from 'Ricambio International' in London (expensive) do a comparison cost between the VW tubes and the Panda items. Any more info just ask.
Ian.

 

[the hobbler]

Hi DW, There are recesses in the top deck of the head and in one of them will be the date stamp, I think mine were in the centre. The MINIMUM work I recommend without any skimming is to have the head stripped and cleaned, check the valve guides for wear and valve stems too. Replace any seals both inlet and exhaust if you have both fitted. Check and regrind the valve seats (at the same time check for cracks between valves with good crack detector fluid - don't rely on a visual check) Check the rocker assembly fitment posts for security. Replace the valve springs (standard items will do) Check rocker arms for wear. Removing the upper tubes is difficult, but you can obtain new lower tubes from 'Ricambio International' in London (expensive) do a comparison cost between the VW tubes and the Panda items. Any more info just ask.
Ian.

Sadly, Ricambio don t have the 'internal-spring' sprung pushrod tubes in stock at the moment, but they may be obtainable from other (continental) suppliers. The VW pushrod tubes are for early VWs, and are about £13.00 a piece. Look under 'oil-supply'.

 

[deckwood]

wow, thanks everyone for the replies, plenty of info to go through. very helpful. I will get the head and go from there, slowly getting all the parts required. will probably end up building the engine to 700cc and see how she goes.

 

[Toshi 975]

wow, thanks everyone for the replies, plenty of info to go through. very helpful. I will get the head and go from there, slowly getting all the parts required. will probably end up building the engine to 700cc and see how she goes.

My most recent experience of a 500 running with a Panda 30 head set up was a local guy who took me for a run out in his car. He had 700cc, a sport camshaft & exhaust and the Panda 30 head using the original inlet manifold and twin choke downdraught Weber carb (some Panda 30s used a Solex equivalent). All I can say is that it was impressive and able to accelerate up hill carrying three large adults.
On the subject of push rod tubes another guy I know simply cut and welded a standard set to the correct length.

 

[deckwood]

My most recent experience of a 500 running with a Panda 30 head set up was a local guy who took me for a run out in his car. He had 700cc, a sport camshaft & exhaust and the Panda 30 head using the original inlet manifold and twin choke downdraught Weber carb (some Panda 30s used a Solex equivalent). All I can say is that it was impressive and able to accelerate up hill carrying three large adults.
On the subject of push rod tubes another guy I know simply cut and welded a standard set to the correct length.

that sounds like what im after

 

[Bleeding Knuckles]

Hi DW, the two standard carbs used on the Panda 30 were a Weber 30 DGF 1/250 or Solex C 30 DID/1, if you can obtain one of these with the original manifold it would be the simplest solution. Even with a little modifying these two will cope well, but you may have to adjust the jetting to suit.
Ian.

 

[Bigvtwin996]

Well I don't know all the details...
but when I brought my first 500 the guy couldn't find the original engine and box (N so quire hard to find anyways) so to compensate me for my loss he gave me a 650 Abarth spec engine based on a new block and crank it has a Panda head, and also a 5 speed gearbox to attach to it.....
I had strange ideas of fitting it to my Jolly till and Italian friend pointed out that a Jolly above 25mph is frightening enough especially round bends so with such an engine I and the car may not last long....
Occasionally I do wonder what the spec is... I know I can take the head off and measure the bores and valve sizes but I guess it is a bit more involved to find out what cam is in it unless any one knows another way?..

 

[Toshi 975]

Hi DW, the two standard carbs used on the Panda 30 were a Weber 30 DGF 1/250 or Solex C 30 DID/1, if you can obtain one of these with the original manifold it would be the simplest solution. Even with a little modifying these two will cope well, but you may have to adjust the jetting to suit.
Ian.

Re the two standard Fiat Panda carbs that you mention they will already be jetted for a 650cc air cooled engine so they will not be far out , if at all on a 700cc engine. The only other carb that will fit that manifold is the Weber (or Holley) 30DIC that has been a traditional tuning modification on the little air cooled engines for any years.

 

[deckwood]

thanks everyone, great info on the carburetors, Simple option sounds like an original weber 30 or solex, but im still trying to decide which way i want to go with my carb. I know they are heavy but i do like the look and prestige of a big weber 40, but some may say its over compensating for something.

 

[Bleeding Knuckles]

Hi DW, I appreciate your desire for things to look cool and a twin 40 does fit the bill, But, the look is not the only thing needed to be considered here. There are similar yet slightly smaller carbs available that will do the job with less fuss and by this I mean tuning and setting up the 'big beastie' to run your engine efficiently at the state of tune you dictate. Dellorto make a selection of twin side draught carbs that are not too heavy, Solex too, getting hold of one at a decent price in good condition will be the problem. The 40 is a heavy carb and must be supported, I run a Solex 35phh10 that is considerably smaller and lighter, but I still support it. My carb has fixed 31mm chokes making the setting up much easier, the weber 40 has a 40mm choke, but, the internal venturi can be anything from 27 to 40mm (I think) this makes the setting up more involved with the jetting too. With the 40 you can control the volume and velocity of the air entering the carb by selecting the correct venturi, then the various mixtures for slow running, acceleration and flat out running can be set by adjusting the multiple jets involved. It is not just a simple job of obtaining a massive carb, fitting it and expecting it to run well, just getting the engine to start and slow running is a hurdle. In the end you need to have someone who knows the initial set up and then invest in a rolling road session (I did and it made a massive difference) Fitting a Panda head may seem the way to go, but you need to consider many things along the way - Cam, Lightening, Balancing etc. It also need be said that you will need to stop the car when all the mods are done !!!
Ian.

 

[deckwood]

For those interested, I got my Panda head gave it a quick clean up and looks ok, will send onto my mechanic for checking and modifying. its got a date stamp of 1985

 

[Bleeding Knuckles]

Hi DW, with that date stamp I would expect to have valve stem seals on both valves. Your engine man will find that there is a large amount of material to be removed from the inlet tract and exhaust tract to smooth things out, I would be careful how wide the inlet to carb surface is made before you have your carb manifold to pair with it.
Ian.