Technical Panda 2010 active 1.1 noise

[dukeboys]

Hi people. Cars dine 90k and has been faultless however tonight i noticed in gear shes making a sort of rattling noise. Dip the clutch and coast or stick her in neutral and she is fine. Revved in neutral fine again but back in gear any gear and the noise is immediately. At first i thought an arch liner was catch the wheel but no.....any ideas. Cant see anything loose or hanging down. Gearbox looks dry.
At rest pushing the clutch in and out is fine no noises and a good pedal. Selecting gears fine. Surely it cant be driveshafts or cvs as the noise stops if youre in neutrsl coasting.....i thinking summat in the box is giving up or could it be summat simpler?

 

[koalar]

sounds like a bearing in the gearbox. Release bearing would also fail in neutral.


you could try putting your finger through the inspection hole instruction are on here. If its oily inside its very likely the gearbox is at fault.

 

[koalar]

here https://www.fiatforum.com/500/486803-clutch-gearbox.html?p=4592037

 

[rmjbn1]

My first thought was input shaft bearing. The symptoms sound similar to mine - rattle goes away when clutch is depressed as the input shaft stops turning.

They're also a known weak point on these gearboxes, especially if the transmission oil level has dropped low at any point.

Mine also rattled in neutral though.

I agree with koalar, a finger inside the inspection hole should give a good indication if a worn input shaft bearing has caused a leak.

My 'box has been much quieter and smoother since it had a new input shaft bearing - but the 'box needs to come off and apart, so if it is the case, might be best to wait until you need a new clutch.

 

[dukeboys]

Bit of an update. The noise isnt drivetrain but i swore was....the RAC came out and said its pinking. Garage found low comp in 2 cylinders pointing to head hasket failure.gunna get it into my preferred indie for a 2nd opinion. Light throttle is just about ok but oress harder and she starts the rattly type noise

 

[koalar]

thanks for the update


worse when cold by any chance ? and worse when you accelerate hard

 

[dukeboys]

Ok compression readings cyls 1 to 4
73
140
170
170
Told its the head gasket

 

[jrkitching]

Ok compression readings cyls 1 to 4
73
140
170
170
Told its the head gasket

Certainly that diagnosis fits the known facts.

Question now is what to do? Unless you can fix this yourself (in which case, it's time to get out the spanners and pull the head off to see what's actually going on), you have to ask the question "Is a near 12yr old base model Panda with 90k+ on the clock worth the cost of a HG replacement"?

If you'd asked this question a year ago, I'd have probably steered you toward scrapping the car and putting the money toward something better. HG repairs can be hit & miss; if the head has warped or been damaged by a blowing gasket and this isn't properly dealt with, replacements usually don't last long. Spending close to what the car is worth on fixing this might not be the best way to use the money.

But prices for cars like this have risen sharply in recent months, and if the rest of the car is basicaly sound, I'd say it's now worth significantly more than the likely repair cost.

If it's just a simple replacement, the valve train is in good order, and no head skimming is required, I'd expect to pay around £500 at an independent garage. But if additional work is required, costs can rise significantly; so set yourself a limit as to what it's worth paying to keep the car.

I'd expect a new cambelt to be fitted as part of the job, and if it was my car, I'd ask for a new water pump as well (assuming the current one is the original) - it shouldn't add more than about £50 to the total bill.

 

[DaveMcT]

Considering how the values of 169 Pandas are appreciating I would go for the repair. It's due anyway for a cam belt and water pump, which will be a significant part of the costs.

Coolant loss is the usual cause of head gasket failure so you need to do a thorough check for leaks. The steel pipe under the exhaust manifold is likely. The part is cheap, so I would say have it changed anyway as the job is easy with the manifold already out of the way.

Water pump is a another culprit. Mine was leaking from a core plug in the pump body. Coolant drips will destroy a cam belt so it was fortunate I didn't leave it longer.

 

[koalar]

. Dip the clutch and coast or stick her in neutral and she is fine. Revved in neutral fine again but back in gear any gear and the noise is immediately. ?

Ok compression readings cyls 1 to 4
73
140
170
170
Told its the head gasket

Light throttle is just about ok but oress harder and she starts the rattly type noise

Symptoms/noise don't fit head gasket ? This is in my opinion on cars I have repaired. Its not to say you can't get different symptoms with a head gasket failed

There's loads of ways a engine can fail often with different symptoms.

pinking in my experience has always been ignition or fuel

on the three cars I have driven with blown head gasket. None have made any a knocking noise

piston slap, sticking valves, worn main bearings I have experience of.

have they done a wet compression test

would have expected something more like

200,200,20,200

or

200,200,70,70

with a head gasket failed

or

200,200,0,200 with a valve stuck


Usually there's coolant in the exhaust or oil. Sometimes the coolant over pressurise, oil scum or smell of fuel


most garages preform a chemical test first on the coolant to confirm a head gasket,

 

[koalar]

I have had a think about this

the only connection I can think of between pinging / engine knock and head gasket is overheating

you can't rely on temperature gauge on the Pandas. If the coolant runs low the sensor runs dry and doesn't read the correct value

Should be fairly obvious when you lift the bonnet as it will smell very hot.


If this was the case it also will not make a knocking noise when cold

 

[DaveMcT]

Seriously overheated engines will melt the inlet manifold. Scrapping the car or a replacement engine then becomes the only options.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Just been re-reading the first post in this thread and it really doesn't sound like a description of a blown head gasket does it?

Ok, so the garage has done a compression check and found the readings given and these certainly point to a problem. I'd want to do a cylinder leak test next to narrow down the possibilities.

As mentioned above, coolant loss is a very typical reason for a blown head gasket on our wee engines but I don't see anywhere that the OP mentions noticing lack of coolant, maybe he just didn't check of course?

What's going through my mind is that maybe we've got an original problem here which has not yet been identified and the poor figures shown in the compression test has just identified another unrelated problem?

So I think we need to know whether dukeboys can do repair work like this or is it going to be a garage with all the associated costs. If you're doing it yourself then fine, carry on. But if it's to be a workshop involved I think he needs to be very sure of what's actually wrong before starting work otherwise he may end up with a perfectly running engine but still have the original problem unfixed?

He mentions taking it to his preferred indie for a second opinion and I think we should all hold our breaths for the result. - Dukeboys, please do keep us informed of what they say, I'm not good at holding my breath!

 

[koalar]

1: Just been re-reading the first post in this thread and it really doesn't sound like a description of a blown head gasket does it?

2: Ok, so the garage has done a compression check and found the readings given and these certainly point to a problem. I'd want to do a cylinder leak test next to narrow down the possibilities.

3: As mentioned above, coolant loss is a very typical reason for a blown head gasket on our wee engines but I don't see anywhere that the OP mentions noticing lack of coolant, maybe he just didn't check of course?

4: What's going through my mind is that maybe we've got an original problem here which has not yet been identified and the poor figures shown in the compression test has just identified another unrelated problem?

1: thats how I see it
2: thats how I see it
3: overheating will cause the engine to knock like mad especially on up hills or acceleration. Fine down hills or coasting. Eventually causing damage.
4: thats how I see it

 

[tonyholbury]

Sometimes the right tool can make life so much easier, I had a coolant leak from my 2004 suzuki alto, I purchased a coolant pressure kit and found the leak in 2 minutes flat by pressuring slowly to twice the blow pressure it was a pipe I just nipped it up until it stopped leaking and as this was at twice the blow pressure I have had no problems since also as low coolant wil give you more headaches down the line a check with a pressure kit on ANY car is worth the price of the kit many times over.

 

[dukeboys]

it going in on the 11th for another comp test at motormech before they start taking the head off....we'll go from there. those earlier readings I wont trust yet as it was not my usual garage so they might have made the numbers up for all i know. they didnt fill me with confidence tbh hence i took the car away.
they fitted a new stat about a month ago as the car was running cool. they tested the gauge then and it was fine and stayed on half ever since......its never shown signs of overheating.
i also fitted a new rad as the old one was an original unit so 11 years old and was weeping slightly no big deal.....no leaks and new coolant. all bled up. heaters nice and warm.
its felt like its been holding back slightly on throttle for a few months now. barely perceptible but its there.....then this.

 

[dukeboys]

i am ok with the spanners on my old mk1 punto but for the panda i would rather just take it somewhere let them graze the knuckles and i just pay for the work to be done. i might mess it up and i cant be doing with that headache.......its an 1108 engine they must have seen loads of them and know them well so il leave it to them to investigate and sort.

 

[DaveMcT]

For £15, this would tell you all you need to know. It even has a push-on adaptor for hard to reach spark plug holes.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/393551891784?hash=item5ba1854d48:g:YpUAAOSwy6ZhBsyi

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

You'd learn a lot more with one of these though: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264558058636?hash=item3d98e39c8c:g:oKgAAOSwnJhdDHrS But you do need a compressed air source to use it.

 

[dukeboys]

D day tomorrow. Will repprt back on the garages findings....presume they will cover off the basics sniff test compression temps etc....