Technical [Panda 169 - 69hp] Engine stops cranking after 3rd attempt - is that intentional?

[mafiltenborg]

My 2011 69hp Panda left me stranded again.

I was out shopping and upon returning to the car, I started it. It ran for a couple of seconds, then the engine stalled.
I tried starting it a few times, then the starter abruptly cut out and I was proper stranded.

The car is now in the shop and we've found the fuel pump to be faulty. It gets power, but does not supply fuel.
This explains the no-start.

However, also in the shop we see the abrupt starter-cutout after a few attempts.
There's loads of battery capacity available, and the cutout is definite and nowhere near the 'slow death' seen when battery goes empty.

So here's the question: Is this by design?
To protect the battery?
To protect the catalytic converter?
To protect the starter motor?


All systems apart from the pump are functional, as feeding it spray-enginestart through the intake while cranking has it going briefly.
Ignition, valvetrain and ECU are needed for that to happen.

 

[koalar]

Are we saying the engine cut out

Then the starter stoped cranking

Try the engine earth strap running under the battery

Try and post a video of the dash ignition on then trying to crank

 

[mafiltenborg]

Are we saying the engine cut out

Then the starter stoped cranking

Try the engine earth strap running under the battery

Try and post a video of the dash ignition on then trying to crank

Yes. The engine cut out from fuel starvation. Verified.
Yes. The engine stopped cranking. Abruptly. My question is if this is intentional.
Earth strap under battery was renewed by mechanic a couple of months ago. For a reason; it failed to crank at all. Now it cranks a few times. Then stops cranking. Abruptly. As if on purpose.

Video; hard to do as it's @ Mechanic. I'll be looking for a revcounter that goes to 300rpm?

We're both wondering if this is by design; usually cars are 'crankable' until the battery is empty, but this one seems to stop on purpose, as if it's protecting starter, catalytic converter, battery or summat.

What kind of behaviour do other people with this generation Panda see when having starting issues? Crank until no more battery or crank until system (ECU?) decides 'enough'?

 

[koalar]

Does the oil, engine and battery charge light stay lite when cranking

Should crank as long as the key is held

 

[The Panda Nut]

Answer is No. Almost certainly. My Panda 1.2s both suffered battery death. Both showed 12v and both died in the space of 1 week somewhat similar. IT TOOK 12 MONTHS TO TRUST THEM AGAIN!! Normally you can keep cranking them till it goes flat.

 

[koalar]

Manual or dualogic

Dualogic has a safety feature, will only crank if N is showing on the dash

It's not recommended to crank for more than 15 seconds

Then wait 15 minutes

 

[mafiltenborg]

Manual or dualogic

Dualogic has a safety feature, will only crank if N is showing on the dash

It's not recommended to crank for more than 15 seconds

Then wait15 minutes

It's a plain 5-speed manual.

When situations like this happen, I try to crank in 5-second-bursts. To help the battery, not overload the starter and avoid flooding the engine with petrol.

 

[koalar]

Earth strap under battery was renewed by mechanic a couple of months ago

So the earth was replaced recently for no, crank recently, and it's now got a crank problem again, strange

Take the battery out of the equation with jump leads

Voltage drop test of the engine block and Chassis is a good first step

It's easy to test if the starter is being sent volt to energise the solenoid

ECU does not come into the equation

Here mine cranking without it plugged in, mine here has a faulty ground the bulb is lighting, when it gets high enough the starter will stop

Fuel pump not running

Press the button under the passenger seat

First thing to check is if it's getting battery voltage


Lift the seat out

There's two cables we are interested with

These can be backed probed with a T pin and a good ground, I used the seat belt bolt as a ground

Yellow and purple, the supply, should be battery voltage as the ignition is switched on for few seconds

Red and purple, the ground, should be less than 1 ohm

Personally I doubt you have two faults, unless the first fault wasn't fixed properly, it's more likely the chassis ground is going hot, this could be detected by a video of the dash while cranking

Without any feedback we are not going to get very far

 

[MrMagoo]

Fault codes?

 

[mafiltenborg]

So the earth was replaced recently for no, crank recently, and it's now got a crank problem again, strange

Yes. Puzzling. Mostly how it's failing the process.

Without any feedback we are not going to get very far

I've sent a link to this thread to mechanic in an attempt to provide pointers to him.
Feedback will be through me.
Wait.

 

[mafiltenborg]

Wait.

So. Car's ready for pickup from mechanic.
Replacing the fuel pump cured the no-supply-issue.

Unreliable starting was found to be related to 'corroded pin/wire(?) 50' somewhere near the starter solenoid. Unsurprisingly, this and similar issues are plaguing many danish cars, as we live in an area where salt is used on the roads during winter. Salt gets in absolutely anywhere. And given the high danish prices (taxes; 'buy one, pay for three') our rolling stock tends to live for many years, thus offering the red ants ample time to wreak havoc.

I've found older cars from central/southern Europe to be particularly prone to develop rust and have electrical gremlins. You know; Simca vs Volvo

Oh well.

Thank you for offering good advice, everybody. Much appreciated!