Technical Panda 169 1.3 Multijet 70hp - Usually starts up when cold, rarely starts up when hot

[Rex97]

Voltage drop test

Google should find a good explication

However you have jump lead

On the fault car instead of putting the negative lead in the battery put it directly on the gearbox cable bracket

There’s an earth under the clutch slave cylinder that’s not visible

My car starts cold every single time couldn't get it to not start. Still not sure on ground strap being the issue

 

[koalar]

I have had my Panda for 3 weeks.
In the first week, we went for a drive for about an hour, parked up, turned the car off and it took a couple tries to start it

again but there was no real alarming issue as we thought that maybe it was just having a funny 5 minutes and needed to reset for a bit. So after 5 minutes it started up no problem, didn't think too much of it but still kept it in mind.

I kept using the car as normal, even going shopping and parking up for 15 minutes and the car starting up, maybe cranking a little longer than usual but always starting.

12 minutes before my driving test this week, we had driven to the shop which was 5 minutes from the test centre, went into get a drink, came back out and the car wouldnt start again. But this time, it didnt start for 50 minutes and i failed to show up to my driving test (i know, what amazing timing for my car to pass out on me).

We managed to get it going again after 50 minutes and i drove home, when i got home i turned it off, tried to start it up again and there was nothing, not even turning over. Left it 6 hours and it started up perfectly.

Not cranking at all

I've had the crankshaft sensor changed, didnt fix the issue.

Not cranking can not be any sensor

I've had the battery checked, all fine.

It’s pretty hard to reliably check a battery, both the old fashioned load test (better) or newer electronic (worse) can be fooled. The only reliable way is by substitution of a known good.

The starter motor isnt the problem from what we can see, it usually starts up perfectly when its not been driven.

Correct. It’s unlikely but it hasn’t been eliminated.

The grounds cables are all fine, no worries there.

Has the battery, battery tray and clutch slave cylinder been removed ? It the only way to visibly check the lead

And the fuel pump is working.. but how far its getting to the engine is so far unknown as that's tomorrow's investigation. Whether its the injectors? not too sure.

ALSO theres no check engine lights and no error codes showing up on scanners so we're currently completely stuck. If we cant find anything tomorrow then its going to have to be a garage job.
Has anyone got ANY ideas on what it could be?

Its both haha. It basically starts when it wants to now but its more likely to not start when its been driven for a while.

So it fails both hot and cold just worse when hot ?

It will crank for a few attempts, then it will just click,

This must be a hint that there isn’t enough currant passing through the starter motor

all the electrics work, and the starter motor works but it doesnt do anything to the engine and then you leave it for 5 minutes and then the engine will attempt to start but not actually start and then out of the blue it'll start absolutely fine.

We checked the battery again last night and all the cables and everything is in working order

Voyage drop test is the only way to test the leads and connectors

with that, the starter motor is fine, but we've had a tip that it could be either EGR related or fuel injectors. My bf's Dad has worked on cars for years and he thinks its fuel related, whether it be a pipe blockage or something.

Right okay. The grounds look visually fine, what the best way to test them without resistance? - We've seen so many recommendations to test with resistance

Voltage drop test

We did have trouble with lights flickering in the car (dash lights and interior) a few times when we were attempting the start the car - would this be a symptom of a bad ground?

Surly this need rectifying before moving onto injectors or anything else

Is there a way to test it reliably or is it just to take it off and clean it or replace it?

Voltage drop test. Wiggly the cables. Substitution and so on

My car starts cold every single time couldn't get it to not start. Still not sure on ground strap being the issue

Earlier it was cranking longer than normal even when cold

It may or may not be an issue

You have to start some where

At the moment we are no further forward than at the beginning. If while failing you had tried to start the car with the jump leads by connecting positive to positive and negative to clean metal on the engine or gearbox. We would by now know if it was or not a battery or earth lead

 

[varesecrazy]

That sounds better than your initial post where it Usually started from cold

Please list what DOESNT happen once warm ..
( having run 3 of these motors Ive got some experience )

 

[Rex97]

That sounds better than your initial post where it Usually started from cold

Please list what DOESNT happen once warm ..
( having run 3 of these motors Ive got some experience )

It starts from cold.. unless its been driven that day ( it seems) I havent taken it out to get it hot today, we were just doing tests on it whilst everything was still cold today.

Everything that does wrong, the not turning over, the lights flickering when its trying to turn over, all of that happens when its been driven and its warm. But theres no drop in power when its being driven, no stalling or anything like that

 

[Rex97]

Not cranking at all

Not cranking can not be any sensor

It’s pretty hard to reliably check a battery, both the old fashioned load test (better) or newer electronic (worse) can be fooled. The only reliable way is by substitution of a known good.

Correct. It’s unlikely but it hasn’t been eliminated.

Has the battery, battery tray and clutch slave cylinder been removed ? It the only way to visibly check the lead





So it fails both hot and cold just worse when hot ?

This must be a hint that there isn’t enough currant passing through the starter motor

Voyage drop test is the only way to test the leads and connectors



Voltage drop test

Surly this need rectifying before moving onto injectors or anything else

Voltage drop test. Wiggly the cables. Substitution and so on

Earlier it was cranking longer than normal even when cold

It may or may not be an issue

You have to start some where

At the moment we are no further forward than at the beginning. If while failing you had tried to start the car with the jump leads by connecting positive to positive and negative to clean metal on the engine or gearbox. We would by now know if it was or not a battery or earth lead

The engine, today, started up everytime when it was cold.. we havent driven it anywhere but over the pit in the garage today. So when we were trying to get it to fail and not start up, it would just keep starting up. But yesterday when the engine was hot, the normal issues where the car would either sometimes turn over, sometimes not, would keep happening.. after an hour and the car was back to basically cold, the issue was still happening is what i meant by that being both.
The first time of the day, it always cranks a little bit longer than the rest of then, it did that today, but thats because its like 9 degrees outside and it had been sat for 12 hours.
I was speaking earlier to who helped me with checking the voltage yesterday and he said that he did that drop test to the metal on the engine and there was no issue.
I don't even know anymore, going to take it to the Fiat specialist because between bouncing off ideas it could be but nothing is showing up as weird, I have nothing else to give to it.
The symptoms are just showing that the car struggles to start after its been driven. Everything is fine until you want to stop and turn off the car after a drive, then it doesnt work properly

 

[koalar]

I would work on the not cranking first

Battery
Black cable
Red cable
Starter motor
Brown cable

You can disconnect the engine ECU and. Pretty much everything else

And the engine if not seized will turn over fine

If you connect the jump leads as I explained earlier while it’s not cranking we would have eliminated two of the five
What’s the battery voltage while cranking

Does the time flash

If the engine isn’t spinning fast enough the HP pump will not produce enough pressure making it hard to start

 

[Cinq999]

As above, your first and main issue is the engine not cranking.

Every sensor on the engine could be dead, but the engine should still spin over.....its a mechanical action of the starter driving the flywheel.

If the engine isn't spinning over, then it's obviously a power issue.

I had a similar situation with another car, and it was the main earth cable breaking down internally.

Looked fine from the outside, but when we physically cut the cable open, it was burning out in the middle, and the longer the engine was running, the worse it got.....especially when lights/heater/demister were switched on.

If it isn't spinning over, personally I'd completely remove the earth cables, and give the contact points a good clean back to bare metal, and also fit new cables.

90% of electrical issues on this car is either due to a dodgy battery, or a bad earth.....even things as stupid as the accelerator pedal not working.

 

[koalar]

Meant to post this with my last post

We know the cable to the solenoid still works as it clicks

Yes I should have drawn the solenoid on top of the starter but as it makes as it makes no difference left as is

 

[Rex97]

Update:
We took a deeper look at the grounds and the main cable basically disintegrated. Getting a new cable today, so HOPEFULLY that was the issue. Taking the battery into a shop to have it looked at, we know its fine from but we just want to be completely sure.
So it should be fixed today

 

[Yolanda]

I'll throw this into the mix it might be of help. On one of the Mercedes forums I go on, there was a similar problem with a SL V6 as the engine control unit sat on the top of the engine. The problem was the same as yours whereby it wouldn't start when hot. It turned out to be a faulty ECU caused by the heat of the engine. On the later model the ECU was moved to one side where it was cooler. I don't think your ECU sits on top of the engine ( although I'm not sure ) but it may be being effected by heat.
Just a thought.

 

[Rex97]

I'll throw this into the mix it might be of help. On one of the Mercedes forums I go on, there was a similar problem with a SL V6 as the engine control unit sat on the top of the engine. The problem was the same as yours whereby it wouldn't start when hot. It turned out to be a faulty ECU caused by the heat of the engine. On the later model the ECU was moved to one side where it was cooler. I don't think your ECU sits on top of the engine ( although I'm not sure ) but it may be being effected by heat.
Just a thought.

Okay, thankyou for that! Ill definitely keep that in mind anyway!

 

[Yolanda]

Okay, thankyou for that! Ill definitely keep that in mind anyway!

No problem. I hope that isn't what's happening with your car as it could be costly.

 

[varesecrazy]

Thats good that youve ruled out the cables

 

[Rex97]

We just went for a test drivee with the new ground cable in place.
Hasn't quite fixed my issue but its slightly better. Beginning to think the starter motor is just on its way out but we'll have to do a check tomorrow.
It started up a few times after the drive just with longer cranking time, but then it wouldnt start again and was just clicking from the starter.

 

[koalar]

Diagnose the problem, is the best policy in my book

These only a handful of components as per photo above

While it’s failing jumpstart as per instructions above would confirm or eliminate two

You can use a scatter gun approach if you like but if it fails a few times the bills soon add up

 

[Rex97]

UPDATE -
Car fixed. After a crank sensor change, ground cable and finally a starter motor, the car works.
Had a check engine light and an error code for P0238 on the test drive after the starter was fixed, turns out my wastegate actuator was stuck so that's also been fixed now.

Thanks all for the tips