Technical Panda 1.1 - Have I blown the ECU?

[RobCa]

Hi All. Advice please.
I've got a 2005 1.1 Panda and I've been getting P0300 & P0302 codes lately. I've been working through the possible causes, new plugs, swap HT leads around, swap the 2 coils around and swapped cyl 2 & 3 fuel injectors around. No change. Engine light not on.
My next thing was to check the compression. The Haynes manual was not too specific about what to disconnect so I disconnected the injector plugs, both coil LT plugs and the 2 plugs to the throttle body before turning the engine over with the spark plugs out, to test.
Now with it back together, as well as getting P0300 & P0302, I'm getting P0120 (Throttle pos sensor), P0201-4 (all 4 injectors) and P0505 (Idle air control sys) with a permanent engine light!
Have I damaged the ECU turning the engine over this way? Checked all fuses in case it was something simple like that!
Thanks

 

[Yolanda]

I presume you've erased the codes and they've come back. You could try a hard re set by means of removing both battery leads ( make sure you have your radio code if you need one) after 10 mins touch both leads together for a few seconds then reconnect the leads to the battery. It may work it may not but worth a try. l had a similar problem with a Jag I used to own whereby a message saying electronic handbrake malfunction would show for a split second when the ignition was switched on even though the brake worked as it should. The message never came on again after the said procedure.

 

[koalar]

take a deep breath

Don’t panic

Let see if we can get back to the original situation

Let’s take little steps.

Remove the throttle cables again and make sure there’s no bent pins and make sure they are fully clicked back in. Pictures my be helpful.

On models with a flyby throttle. If you disconnect the cables on the throttle and start the car the engine light comes on and will not rev. Just plugging it back in will not Work you have to connect a scanner.

Depending on your scanner it can be tricky to clear. On my car using Delphi or WoW if I just clear the code it comes back when I switch the ignition on and off. I have to clear the code then pull out the obd connector out. I can then switch the ignition off and back on and it stays cleared. No idea why.

What was you PSI per cylinders

 

[koalar]

Check the wiring to the injector closest to the timing belt (cylinder 1) end. I know it’s not the ones you swapped over

Pull the connector of and reseat it if necessary if you can’t see anything obvious

 

[koalar]

I presume you've erased the codes and they've come back. You could try a hard re set by means of removing both battery leads ( make sure you have your radio code if you need one) after 10 mins touch both leads together for a few seconds then reconnect the leads to the battery. It may work it may not but worth a try. l had a similar problem with a Jag I used to own whereby a message saying electronic handbrake malfunction would show for a split second when the ignition was switched on even though the brake worked as it should. The message never came on again after the said procedure.

Sorry long gone are the days when this could work

a reset of the ECU can only be done via software nothing is stored here in volatile memory there is smalll amount of volatile memory in the body computer for time and trip

 

[Goudrons]

The 1.1 suffers a wiring problem, there's a common wire in the loom from the ECU that seems to effect the coils and injectors and causes a misfire.
When it's bad enough it starts flagging coil or injector fault codes.

There have been posts before, someone even stripped the wires back, found the problem and fixed it.

Injector problem? Code P0202 - Cyl #2 Injector | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

A read of this might help. http://www.obd-codes.com/p0202 As you've moved the suspect injector to another cylinder yet the fault still occurs with cylinder two, you can say with some certainty the injector is ok. So with this presumption, you need to work backwards from that injector to the...

www.fiatforum.com

Panda eco 1.1 2010 misfire The FIX ! | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

and you just made up the bit about the op's car and the 'sewing machine.'.. :) ?? Must have been talking to electrician huh ? - contagious

www.fiatforum.com

I think they even posted vids of the issue

 

[RobCa]

Thanks all for your replies.
I forgot to mention that I did re-solder that Fiat bodge of several wires joined together in the loom. The commons to the injectors and coils I think? It looked ok but soldered it to be sure.
It's the manual cable throttle type, but I did double check I hadn't bent any pins in the various connectors.
Strange thing is, I left the battery disconnected for 24 hours while I got on with other things. Reconnected it today after the double checks etc and the codes have gone! Even the stubborn P0300 & P0302 have gone!
Apart from the swapping bits around that I mentioned, to resolve the original error codes, I've only really replaced 1 plug lead (No. 2 cyl).
I'd already disconnected the battery many times between trying things but not for so long. The odb tester was pulled out a few times too. Maybe it is a combination of these two in the right order that cleared it!
My compression test was inconclusive as I was trying to bodge a short cheap thing with a length of sturdy hose etc!
I've ordered a proper one so would still like to check that when it arrives.
What is the best way to disable the sparks and fuel when turning the engine over for the compression test? I don't wont to bugger it up proper next time!!

 

[Yolanda]

Fuel pump fuse/relay.

 

[Yolanda]

Looks like the battery disconnect worked, time will tell.

 

[koalar]

Looks like the battery disconnect worked, time will tell.

The original poster did loads of thing at once we will never know now which fixed it

I know on my car eco 1.2 2010 it never clears the fault codes even though it says it has unless I unplug the scanner before turning the ignition back on. It’s consistent and repeatable

I have repaired many stolen recovered or accident damaged cars which have been waiting with the battery disconnect for months or years. All faults, codes, pending and adaptive in the ECU are just the same as the day the battery was disconnected. 30 years ago things were different and letting backup capacitors wind down would work. But they just don’t work that way any more. The only way to reset it via software

The body computer is slightly different but the instant the volts fall below threshold what’s stored in temporary memory is lost. 1 second, 1 hour or 1 day makes no difference. Because it’s always running keeping the time it is possible for it to get into a knot. Resetting it to start reading from line one of the code is possible by disconnecting battery and reconnecting.

It very similar to the gearbox earth lead. Nearly always the first thing suggest for every electrical fault. But It take huge amps to turn the engine over. If the engine is turning over cleaning it isn’t going to help with some sensor requiring a few milliamps. The only other thing that could possibly be effected is the alternator charging.

Chassis rail earth yes all sorts of problems.

Anyhow here’s Fiats take.

 

[RobCa]

My new compression tester arrived.
In case it's of use to others who want to do a compression test and not sure what to disconnect to disable fuel/sparks. I found on another post, that you remove the two multi plugs on the ECU. Disconnect the battery while you unplug/reconnect these though, to be on the safe side.
That should save getting all those pesky error codes while doing the test and after!

 

[koalar]

yep that’s how I do it. Probably one of my old posts

F18 is probably easer and safer

what were the results

Should be over 200psi even when the throttle butterfly is mostly shut

 

[RobCa]

With the butterfly shut, number 1 was about 160 and the other 3 were 175 to 180. I forgot to get my assistant to press the peddle (it is a mechanical cable type)! Not sure how that affects the readings!
I was half expecting number 1 to be a bit down as that was the cylinder that blew the head gasket and the bore was a bit pock marked from this. The previous owner must have ignored the symptoms for some time!
The pressure stayed constant after stopping the test, so I'm ok with this result for a cheap old car.

It runs better now than it has since I got it back on the road so maybe the plugs or HT lead had been playing up for some time.

 

[koalar]

All mine are well over 200 psi

I doubt all the cheap gauges will read identical


I doubt all versions of the engine will be identical

We need to get some base lines down here

Mines a 1.2 eco 2010

At least some of the earlier 1.2 with the square oil filler were a slightly lower compression

 

[Yolanda]

I've not had to do a compression test for many years, but the general rule of thumb was to have the throttle wide open. How you achieve that these days with fly by wire for the want of a better word I wouldn't know.
My 2004 model still has a cable throttle.

 

[koalar]

I've not had to do a compression test for many years, but the general rule of thumb was to have the throttle wide open. How you achieve that these days with fly by wire for the want of a better word I wouldn't know.
My 2004 model still has a cable throttle.

Correct that the proper way

I got valid results on a flyby wire without bothering

Then again it’s a test sample of one

I also only used the rubber cone. It’s a pain trying to screw the adaptor in the 1.2 eco as the spark plugs are angled.

Whole process only takes a couple of minutes if there’s two of you doing it. One to push the compression tester down hard over the spark plug hole one to turn the key

 

[RobCa]

Mine is a 2005 1.1 with square oil filler. Its in the engine range where the plugs changed to 12mm but before the modified Euro4?
I used the 12mm adapter on the flexi-hose. A bit fiddly getting it screwed in, just relying on twisting the hose to tighten.
I'm not sure how accurate these cheap gauges calibration will be.
I guess it's quite likely that the 1.1 engine could have less compression than the eco 1.2.
The Haynes manual just says to consider less than 10 bar (140psi) as less than healthy.

 

[jrkitching]

How you achieve that these days with fly by wire for the want of a better word I wouldn't know.

AFAIK the Panda has a cable throttle at least up to and including Euro4, so all 1.1 and 60HP 1.2 engines.

 

[koalar]

AFAIK the Panda has a cable throttle at least up to and including Euro4, so all 1.1 and 60HP 1.2 engines.

UK cars I owned

1.1 06 active cable
1.2 05 dynamic. Flyby wire
1.2 10 eco dynamic flyby wire

No idea how to translate that but most cable throttle bodies on eBay are also from a 1.1

 

[varesecrazy]

Mine is a 2005 1.1 with square oil filler. Its in the engine range where the plugs changed to 12mm but before the modified Euro4?
I used the 12mm adapter on the flexi-hose. A bit fiddly getting it screwed in, just relying on twisting the hose to tighten.
I'm not sure how accurate these cheap gauges calibration will be.
I guess it's quite likely that the 1.1 engine could have less compression than the eco 1.2.
The Haynes manual just says to consider less than 10 bar (140psi) as less than healthy.

Any updates..??