Oh deary me, cam belt?

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Earlier this morning I was just finishing my weetabix when the front door bell rang. It was one of the neighbours from the flats across the road. "Sorry to bother you but could you maybe tell me what might be wrong with my car, it won't go and it sounds different.

I like helping neighbours and especially when it's to do with cars so I had my thick fleece on and was out the door before Mrs J got a chance to fuss over the coldness of the day. Ok, give it a go and let's see what's what. She got into the drivers seat and twisted the key. The engine turns over "enthusiastically" but it's immediately obvious that there's no compression - sounds like an engine being turned over with the plugs out, but without the "chuffing" noises - Whoa! stop right now! My best guess would be a broken timing belt. This is the wee 1.4 16 valve engine which actually has 2 belts, one runs from the crankshaft to the cam sprocket and the other is a very short belt which links the two cams. It has a plastic top belt cover retained by clips so, although not an engine I've worked on, it should be easy enough to remove the top cover and have a look. However it's now raining and Mrs J is worried about me getting cold and wet so it'll have to wait. In the meantime I've told her to give AVW, or local VAG indy specialist a ring when they reopen - probably on Tuesday as Monday is a Scottish holiday. She bought this car ('14 plate Ibiza Toca) just before I bought mine so she's owned it for five years now. It has 54,000 miles on the clock with no indication in the service book of a cam belt ever having been done and she tells me she hasn't had anything except services done by the wee workshop 1/2 mile down the road (who specialize in very cheap tyres and MOTs.)

As with most of our neighbours, she is a very nice person and I feel very sorry for her facing what I'm sure will be a very substantial repair cost. If it was the height of summer I would quite enjoy looking into repairing this for her myself, but in the middle of a cold and wet Scottish winter, working outside on my driveway? just not an option I'm afraid.

 

[varesecrazy]

I know what you mean Jock

Our elderly neighbours asked me yesterday if I had jumpleads..
Thier elderly Golf was 'dead'
It was -1'c and sunny

Got a meter on the battery..it was better than my punto..
So climbed in.. oh..its a diesel

Tried once spun ok..no attempt to fire

Tried a few warming cycles.. turned quicker.. but no chuffing

Ended up at a local garage.. borrowed some easystart.. 1st time ever..

Panda driver at the controls..1 short spray..
Away it went

The neighbours used it for their Click and Collect.. all good

Chances are it needs its 1st ever GlowPlugs..
If it was warmer..I would order them in

But looking back.. the few VW jobs Ive done have been 'sheared bolt nightmares'

So it'll be off to the garage in the week

Your neighbours SEAT sounds like the old
'Frozen waterpump failure'

 

[jackwhoo]

Friend of mine with a very similar engines golf mk4 (Not the tsi engine) had a cam belt idler wheel(plastic) let go while driving.

I had no hope at all that there was no valve damage....but.....fitted new belt kit and it was completely fine. 30,000miles later it is still running great. No I don't fully understand how it is possible.

First start after fitting new belt the hydraulic valve lifters were very very noisy for some time.

So I would suggest it is worth trying a new belt and praying, prior to anything more costly.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Friend of mine with a very similar engines golf mk4 (Not the tsi engine) had a cam belt idler wheel(plastic) let go while driving.

I had no hope at all that there was no valve damage....but.....fitted new belt kit and it was completely fine. 30,000miles later it is still running great. No I don't fully understand how it is possible.

First start after fitting new belt the hydraulic valve lifters were very very noisy for some time.

So I would suggest it is worth trying a new belt and praying, prior to anything more costly.

Morning Charlie, you might well be right. Either that or, as jack suggests below, the tensioner. I suppose it could be the belt itself due simply to age and the fact the car is very much a short journey town car so plenty of cold starts and not often running at temperature for very long.

Aye Jack, this too is the non TSI engine which they've been making for years. Sounds like it could be the same engine? I'll keep fingers, toes and all other appendages firmly crossed for her!

 

[AndyRKett]

When you say she’s owned it for 5 years has she had it from new? There are many unscrupulous people who have the means to clock a Vag group car. Seems unusual that a lightly used 1.4 should break its belt at such a low milage?

I think the belt on my 2.0tdi isn’t due till 100,000 miles or something like 7 years, for safety sake I was planning to get it done in the new year as it’s now 5 years old and has just under 70k on the clock

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Ended up at a local garage.. borrowed some easystart.. 1st time ever..

Panda driver at the controls..1 short spray..
Away it went

Chances are it needs its 1st ever GlowPlugs..
If it was warmer..I would order them in

But looking back.. the few VW jobs Ive done have been 'sheared bolt nightmares'

So it'll be off to the garage in the week

OOOh, Easy Start, https://www.halfords.com/motoring/e...additives/bradex-easy-start-300ml-793737.html a very mixed blessing? especially where diesels are concerned. Yes it will often start a reluctant one but, especially with older engines, as you probably know, they can become "addicted" and refuse to start without a "fix" from then on so you need to use it very sparingly.

Completely agree with you that in this instance though new glow plugs are very likely what is needed. Not a job I would volunteer for though. I've had too much agro over the years with seized glow plugs in ally heads so now I'll do it on the Family Fleet vehicles and, maybe, if my arm gets really twisted, for a good friend - Otherwise I won't touch them!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

When you say she’s owned it for 5 years has she had it from new? There are many unscrupulous people who have the means to clock a Vag group car. Seems unusual that a lightly used 1.4 should break its belt at such a low milage?

I think the belt on my 2.0tdi isn’t due till 100,000 miles or something like 7 years, for safety sake I was planning to get it done in the new year as it’s now 5 years old and has just under 70k on the clock

'14 plate Andy and these older engines are recommended to be changed at around 45,000 miles/5 years or sooner: https://vwsc.co.uk/servicing-repairs/cam-belt-intervals/

Or this one: https://www.autotecnic.co.uk/maintenance/audi-vw-timing-cambelt-replacement-intervals/

PS. Our local indy, who I trust without reservation, recommended 5 years or 50,000 miles for my boy's 1.6 CR engined Fabia Scout. I know there are improved technologies and materials going into belts now a days but the pump and tensioner/idler bearings still seem to fail with depressing regularity. I wouldn't be leaving any vehicle I owned to close on 100,000 miles no matter what the manufacturer - in a bid to get a low maintenence costing - recommended.

I would tend to argue too that a "lightly used" vehicle - so lots of low revs/stop start motoring with an engine not often up to full operating temp - is a perfect recipe for early belt failure?

 

[varesecrazy]

Its seldom 'the belt' thats at fault.. but its the part in common with most failures.

Sat idle for long periods is bad news..

Diesels in regular use often double the quoted mileages before the owner then gets twitchy and pays for a new kit to be fitted.

In my early years with FIAT I came to change a belt on my 1500 estate

Ordered one in.. genuine FIAT. 2 teeth short
Went back to dealer..
'Oh there is an option'
5 too long

The original belt went back on and did 130k over 10 years without issue.. scrapped through floorpan rust eventually

Thats the car that had its first oil change at 60k..
so I can be pretty confident that belt was original

 

[portland_bill]

Belts are much better now than when we first got them on cars. As said above, the belt is rarely the cause these days. Early belts could occasionally fail just as the engine stopped, the little jolt as it stopped being the 'last straw'.

I remember a neighbour with a Vauxhall Victor, 2000 ohc. One morning, before getting into the car, he noticed the cambelt lying underneath. So off he went on the bus and returned with a new belt. Off with the covers, slacken the tensioner, on with the new belt, retension, covers on, job done. Less than an hour.
Turned the key, clunk. "Oh, battery is flat." Grabbed a neighbour, attached a rope, towed it around the block, 2nd gear, up with the clutch, bent lots of valves.
Always a good idea to align the marks, not just slip on a new belt.

 

[portland_bill]

The 1300 engine in the Suzuki Carry van, and used I think in some cars and the SJ/Jimny, seems to be a safe engine.
The cam sprocket has two timing marks, E & I. The same sprocket is used on the twincam engines, and the appropriate mark depends on which camshaft.
Single cam engines are times with one of the marks, I forget which now, but timing it on the other one results in a non start, but no damage.
A friend has a Carry van. The engine is between the seats, with a fixed bulkhead close in front of the engine. Viewing the cam timing marks is difficult from inside the cabin, impossible from below. The crank mark is easy from below, but this makes timing the thing a two-person job. Now this friend is clever, not just academically, but practically as well, but on this occasion, with me below and him above, he aligned the wrong cam mark.
We removed, realigned and refitted, and all was well. Still is a few years later. Relief!

Peugeot 307 2.0 petrol, not a safe engine. Another saga, told elsewhere, early last year.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Its seldom 'the belt' thats at fault.. but its the part in common with most failures.

Sat idle for long periods is bad news..

Diesels in regular use often double the quoted mileages before the owner then gets twitchy and pays for a new kit to be fitted.

In my early years with FIAT I came to change a belt on my 1500 estate

Ordered one in.. genuine FIAT. 2 teeth short
Went back to dealer..
'Oh there is an option'
5 too long

The original belt went back on and did 130k over 10 years without issue.. scrapped through floorpan rust eventually

Thats the car that had its first oil change at 60k..
so I can be pretty confident that belt was original

Some people get lucky? and besides, I'm a pessimist!

 

[varesecrazy]

Lucky.. me...?
I bought 2 clio's in a week once

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Lucky.. me...?
I bought 2 clio's in a week once

Just plead temporary insanity/senility depending on how old you are or think you can get away with. Everything seems to revolve around what you think you can get away with now a days don't you think?

 

[StevenRB45]

Lucky.. me...?
I bought 2 clio's in a week once

In your defence was it a cut and shut?

 

[mowermender70]

ah so thats were the the 2 clios went somebody had to have them .

 

[varesecrazy]

In your defence was it a cut and shut?

No actually the one cut.n.shut was the last car I paid 'top dollar' for on a forecourt.. a Ford..in 1987

Disaster of a car

 

[DaveMcT]

Renault 2 litre (including turbo) say 70,000 miles for the cam belt. But further down it says for cars doing mostly short journeys or low speeds the cam belt should be changed at 40,000 miles.
My Punto HGT failed at a traffic light just as I raised the revs to pull away. The starter went fast-slow so the the cause was pretty obvious as some valves were open and others closed. One inlet valve and one exhaust were obviously bent, but all eight exhausts were slightly bent so it must have lost some teeth before it failed completely.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Just a wee update on my neighbour's Ibiza Toca. Yesterday (I think I posted somewhere else about this but I forget where?) a flat bed recovery vehicle took the Ibiza away. Exciting for me as I was recruited to sit in it and guide it up the ramps! Turns out she's having it looked at by the wee garage down by the harbour which used to be owned by a friend - now retired.

So, off it went with my best guess being that the cam belt was either snapped or something. This is the old 16 valve 1.4 litre which has been around in various VAG vehicles almost since I was a boy - slight exaggeration - and I'm pretty sure it's an interference jobbie.

Anyway, Just about a half hour ago and in the dark, so just over 24 hours after it was taken away, it's back. Still on the flat bed. Ramps down (2 men this time) and pushed back into a parking space outside the flats - engine not started! The girl who owns it lives on the second floor of the flats opposite and all her lights are out so I'm guessing she's at work (Tesco). The two guys get back in the recovery truck and depart.

I'm thinking this doesn't look good. Best case scenario, considering how it was only away for a day, would be they tried a belt on it and it ran Ok so that's them delivering it back. But I find myself asking why not just drive it the short distance? - I can walk it in 15 minutes. Also they pushed it into the parking bay without starting the engine. So I think it more likely there is extensive engine damage and they've probably advised a replacement engine? - which, on a Tesco salary she probably can't afford? I find myself now wondering if they've lifted the head. If so it may be in the boot and I can do a bit of detective work on it. Luckily this engine is covered in the Haynes manual for my Ibiza - same model, different engine. Could be something I could sort out for her if she can do without the car until the weather warms up a bit. I know her flat has one of the garages in the block round the corner assigned to it so we could recruit a few of the neighbours and push it round there so it would be out of everyone's way and if the head is off and the piston crowns look Ok I could take the head into my garage and strip it down in comfort to see if it's savable.

Whatever the outcome I'll keep you informed of how it pans out - could be a nice wee "lockdown" project?

 

[jackwhoo]

On my friends vw 16v which threw the belt I set all pistons midway on stroke, put it in gear, removed the spark plugs , removed valve cover , blew compressed air into cylinder with both valves closed using an adapter , listened for air escaping from exhaust and throttle plate. Rotated cams repeating air test on other cylinders.
Could not believe all cylinders sounded ok, only then did I fit new belt kit and was still amazed no valve damage.


Wonder if garage just found broken / thrown belt and assumed head is wrecked?

Jock I am sure you can give the owner some great advice/help if you can get your hands on it for a proper look , if Mrs Jock approves.

Cheers Jack

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

On my friends vw 16v which threw the belt I set all pistons midway on stroke, put it in gear, removed the spark plugs , removed valve cover , blew compressed air into cylinder with both valves closed using an adapter , listened for air escaping from exhaust and throttle plate. Rotated cams repeating air test on other cylinders.
Could not believe all cylinders sounded ok, only then did I fit new belt kit and was still amazed no valve damage.


Wonder if garage just found broken / thrown belt and assumed head is wrecked?

Jock I am sure you can give the owner some great advice/help if you can get your hands on it for a proper look , if Mrs Jock approves.

Cheers Jack

That's a wonderful idea Jack. I have a homemade plug adaptor (old plug with a bit of pipe welded to it so I can fix some flex air hose to it). If they haven't done any dismantling that'll be the first thing to try (a bit like an "unmetered" cylinder leak test?)

Fingers crossed that they just put a belt on it and found it ran ok? With the time it's been away it's got to be either this or they gave up on it!