General Odd vibration/wheel wobble

[Enzo]

Hello.... as for title my Panda presents a vibration (probably) coming from the left front wheel when cornering to the right...here's a list of the renewed bits which cured other noises but not this one:

both the swinging arms
left outer c.v. joint
left wheel bearing


any ideas??I thought about play in the steering mechanism, especially the heads, but it's quite strange the knocking noise gets worse when I turn to the right .

 

[Martiny10]

Hi:

Simple one first -
1) Check if the wheel arch liner has come loose at one corner. It's only held in place by self tappers on my car.

2) It is possible to put a twist in the flexi hose when re-attaching the caliper, this brings it within range of the wheel, and either the rim or balance weight will rub against the hose when right cornering. This happened to me - couldn't work out what the noise was, until I saw a mark on the flexi hose and put 2 and 2 together.

3) Are you using standard wheels? Again, rubbing when turning right is a standard symptom. I use Uno Turbo wheels and the grinding was pretty bad, even with 3mm spacers.

4) Not sure if this is a problem where you stay, but my suspension spring rusted out and broke - I lost about 2 twists of the coil, which lowered one side of the car. A replacement was about £50 from FIAT, or about £5 from my local scrap dealer.

5) Chassis damage - I struck a kerb once in my old car which altered the wheel geometry, by twisting the chassis where the steering arm attaches. Combination of a bit of speed and corrosion caused it to buckle a little. This is probably not the kind of accident that will affect the left side on a LHD car.

 

[dave]

tyre presures un even?

 

[John H]

check the condition of the tyres too: bulges and edge damage in particular - even swap both front and back tyres to the opposite side to see if the symptoms change sides...

 

[pandafan]

It sounds a lot like tyre damage, as you have replaced all of the obvious other causes. Try fitting your spare and test driving it.

 

[Enzo]

This morning (Christmas :yuck: ) I jacked the car and "shaked" the front wheels...the right one seems to have a bit of play which could be the steering head or the box .Before I spend more money for unuseful bits I'd like to know how to diagnose a worn head/steering box .

 

[John H]

A couple of things -

I really think it's worth doing the tyre swap before you spend any more time and money on it, as detailed in post 4 above.
Tyres damaged by hitting kerbs can look OK but deform when rolling, giving funny noises and vibrations.

Also, I need to be sure we're talking about the same parts, as in UK speak the Panda has a steering rack (rack and pinion, rather than a steering box, which I understand to be old technology - a worm gear and recirculating ball - and a bit wooly by comparison, but doesn't kick back on rough ground).

Here's a picture of the bits I think we're talking about on the Panda:

there you can get play in:

the ball joint known as "track rod end" - you can see the play in that joint when the road wheel is moved as if to turn the car left then right, or when the steering wheel is moved to left then right etc.

the ball joint inside the bellows at the end of the rack can also wear, but you may need to squeeze the bellows to feel the joint, while somebody else pushes and pulls at the road wheel, or steering wheel - you'll feel if it is worn. The one off the dismantled CL was still so tight you could position the arms to any angle and they wouldn't move under their own weight, even with the track rod end joint on the end of the arm.

with some steering lock on for a right turn, get hold of the bellows and see if you can move the rack about - check up/down, and fore/aft, a bit of movement there may give you a noise described as "clatter" when traversing bumpy ground. I suppose if it was badly worn you'd feel that through the steering.

The thing is though - these items are checked as part of the annual vehicle test (MOT in UK), so you'd find out soon enough if there was a problem here, but I don't know how severe tests are in Italy.


Post back to let us know if I'm in the right area..

 

[Harllequin]

Ball joints on a panda are very forgiving when testing by hand. I thought mine were solid for the MOT by holding the wheel and doing the normal checks, however it failed on a ball joint. Best to do is to check with a pry bar as this shows the most "play"

When i changed mine the "play" was not at all noticeable, however when I got the part off the car ot stood out a mile.

Also, Fiat will NOT supply a ball joint as they do not list the part on its own, however a good motorfactor will supple the bit you need.

Sorry to contradict John , but the 'Track rod end' is a "Track rod end" (the end of the bit that do the steering)
The ball joints are the bits top, and bottem of the hub that allow the steering to work.

I

 

[Enzo]

Yes :worship: ...in italian we indifferently talk about "steering box" if it has a rack/pinion structure or the endless screw with recirculating balls.The slackness seems to be coming from the "steering rack ball joint", the bit under the rubber bellows...not sure if it's sold as separate item or I will need to renew the whole rack !Wear of the track rod ends is quite common instead, and I'd prefer this is the case but only a more accurate check will give the answer.

P.S. I excluded the tyres' damages because the wheels have been changed of place and re-balanced without affecting this noise.

 

[John H]

Ball joints on a panda are very forgiving when testing by hand. I thought mine were solid for the MOT by holding the wheel and doing the normal checks, however it failed on a ball joint. Best to do is to check with a pry bar as this shows the most "play"

When i changed mine the "play" was not at all noticeable, however when I got the part off the car ot stood out a mile.

Also, Fiat will NOT supply a ball joint as they do not list the part on its own, however a good motorfactor will supple the bit you need.
I

Good description and comments about that ball joint, which I'd assumed would have been checked while disconnected, at the point of replacing the "swinging arms".
That is why it wasn't included in the picture I was commenting about.

Here are the other bits:

Sorry to contradict John , but the 'Track rod end' is a "Track rod end" (the end of the bit that do the steering)
The ball joints are the bits top, and bottem of the hub that allow the steering to work.
I

No problems with contradictions , but the joints I was on about are also ball and socket joints, which is why I named the one by its UK name, however I don't know a specific name for the one under the bellows.

Out of interest, I think the Panda bearing at the top of the suspension strut, which allows the steering to work, is a sleeve in a rubber mounting - rather than a ball joint - but I might be wrong, and it's too cold to pull one to bits in the garage to be sure.



Good morning Enzo, here's the section relating to the rack:

It looks like the parts under the bellows are available separately.

 

[Nacho]

Just the post I need. I too am having trouble with my steering. Although, I know it is from all the off-roading I do. My car will pull back and fourth from side to side when driving. It is only getting worse and is kind of dangerous I would imagine. I am going to pull the whole steering assembly from ball joint to ball joint off and get a good shape one from the junkyard. It has done this before when I initially hit some very large holes (you should see the transmission/oil pan on this car) and we just readjusted the wheel alignment with a tow strap. I have not seen any bent items on the car so I am guessing there is something in the rack that is busted and slips.
Nacho

 

[Enzo]

I see the Fiat catalog shows the item "tirante" as separate from the rest of the rack...but this afternoon I've been asking around for reconditioned spares and I only found the whole rack for 30€...not a great expense but I want to be sure before!
In case of need to dismantle this bit does anyone have advice about how to separate it from the steering column??

 

[John H]

For Nacho

if the alignment of the front wheels is not correct, with too much "toe out", the car can be very twitchy on slightly slippy surfaces as the wheels take turn to pull you one way, then the other, depending on which side has more grip, even if the joints are OK.
You can get a similar feeling with ruts in roads when one tyre edge gets a grip and pulls you out of the rut.

Play in worn joints has a simliar feel too, in addition to imprecise steering.

 

[Nacho]

I have more bad news for this post. I was leaving from work and was walking towards my Panda when I saw this large oil puddle under the drivers side. After looking I found that oil is coming from around the inner axle boot/transmission area. I am not yet sure if the boot is tore or there may be greater problems. This may be part of my horrible steering dilemma. I may have something broken from all the off-road beating I give the car. Does anyone think the axles could cause a steering problem.
Nacho

 

[pandafan]

Nacho,
I've missed something along the way; Please.............what model and year is your car ?

 

[Nacho]

pandafan,
It is a 1988 Young 750 non-fire. I have a huge puddle of gear oil under the drivers side at this moment. Looks like I will be working on it this Sunday/Monday when I am off. I was having trouble with the steering and while checking on things I found this leak.
Nacho

 

[Nacho]

Hi all,
Just to inform you all I worked on the car yesterday. I am replacing both tie rod ends, and both inner and outer rubber boots on the drivers (left in car) side axle. I cut all the clamps holding the boots on thinking I will just make more with my hose clamp maker set. Well, I got all the clamps done and put the axle back on. I turned it and the f!@##$% clamp hit. It was getting dark and I was already pissed because it took me an hour to get the axle nut off even after finding a long piece of pipe so I just threw the axle in the car and went to sleep for the day. I am going to try and find a new clamp like the ones they use from factory. Does anyone have experience with these style clamps? I don't really know how they work so it will be an experience.
Nacho

 

[Enzo]

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Io ho usato le fascette per tenere insieme i cavi elettrici, comprate in ferramenta ma pure i ricambisti auto le hanno!Lascia perdere quelle in metallo perchè ci vuole una pinza adatta per stringerle.

 

[John H]

Hmm, it's funny you should mention that - I'd forgotten the fun I had with the "cable ties"...

something like these, which were supplied with the boots - they hit the hub where the tie joins.

I ended up melting their joints with a Weller solder gun, using its flat blade attachement for interfering with plastic, instead of the soldering bit.

Not ideal.

As far as I know, the original style metal rings need a special tool to crimp them on.

 

[Nacho]

John H,
To bad to hear someone else has had this problem also. I don't know why they had to make it so you needed a special flush clamp. Anouther great Fiat idea I guess. I am going to give your tie strap melting a try here tommorrow. I hope this works out for me like it did you. Thanks for the great idea.
Nacho