Technical No instrument panel or dash lights - (New '88 Panda Sisley owner)

[miks]

Hi all. I've recently purchased a 1988 Sisley Panda. This Panda was restored in Italy and I imported it and plated it here in the US. While I believe the restoration was mechanically solid, there have been a few minor gremlins to address.

1) No instrument panel or dash lights: I'm not getting any lighting in the instrument panel. The headlights, interior door-open light, and other lights seem to work fine, but I get no lighting on the speedo or car diagram. I checked all the fuses (all good) and clean all the fuse contacts. Still no lights. I'm assuming that the instrument panel lights should come on in the second-from-top position of the main dash light switch. In that middle position I note that the inclinometer backlight does come on. Here's a link to a short video showing the lights I'm seeing: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1a73fnlc0b31o2v/1988 Panda Sisley - no instrument panel lights.mov?dl=0

I did remove the instrument panel/dash cover and noticed there was a tiny light bulb just kinda hanging out in space (not affixed in any holder), and one of the terminals to that had pulled out so I reattached it. This tiny bulb does appear to be creating some minor light (seen through the gaps in the dash in the video) but it doesn't seem to be for the instrument panel. I'm not sure if that bulb is supposed to be positioned somewhere in particular.

The truth is I don't know what the instrumental panel is "supposed" to look like when dark, but I have to assume it's lit up. Any thoughts on what I should check next? Is that tiny bulb I found hanging behind the dash panel supposed to be somewhere else to illuminate the panel? Or is there any light(s) that might be out? Thanks for any thoughts.

2) Some bird chirp noises from the vent fan: I'm getting some irritating noises from the vent fan. How can I get access to this fan unit to diagnose and address the noise? Do I go from the dash side or from the engine side?

Thanks!

 

[Dragon Man]

hey there, welcome!

hmm ok first off it just looks like the bulbs in the top of the instrument cluster may be blown or just missing. theres no bulbs behind the instruments, they are on top of it. if you take the front of the dash off i think you can just get to them and replace. they are the standard T5 wedge type.

the blower fan is only accessible from the engine bay however to access the fan its self, the whole blower fan/heater matrix box has to come out and be split. sadly its not something that can be done really while its still in the car. you do have to have the front of the dash off while you do this as theres a few screws holding the 3 air selection levers in place. you will also have to remove the coolant lines to the heater matrix. dont undo the heater matrix tap, only undo the hose clamps. the actual blower motor housing box is only held in place with 2x 10 or 13mm nuts up under where the wiper motor is. it may make it more easy if you take the wiper motor out. its just the one plastic nut where the wiper arm is and 2x 13mm bolts on the motor its self.

never know a fan to make strange sounds on a panda before. does it only do it when the fan is on?

 

[miks]

hey there, welcome!

hmm ok first off it just looks like the bulbs in the top of the instrument cluster may be blown or just missing. theres no bulbs behind the instruments, they are on top of it. if you take the front of the dash off i think you can just get to them and replace. they are the standard T5 wedge type.

the blower fan is only accessible from the engine bay however to access the fan its self, the whole blower fan/heater matrix box has to come out and be split. sadly its not something that can be done really while its still in the car. you do have to have the front of the dash off while you do this as theres a few screws holding the 3 air selection levers in place. you will also have to remove the coolant lines to the heater matrix. dont undo the heater matrix tap, only undo the hose clamps. the actual blower motor housing box is only held in place with 2x 10 or 13mm nuts up under where the wiper motor is. it may make it more easy if you take the wiper motor out. its just the one plastic nut where the wiper arm is and 2x 13mm bolts on the motor its self.

never know a fan to make strange sounds on a panda before. does it only do it when the fan is on?

Hi Dragon Man. Thank you for the fast input!
Lights - Understood the lights are above the instrument cluster. Those are definitely not coming on. I'll take the dash panel off and see if I can check those lights out and see what's up.
Fan - Ugh. Sounds like a real project, but seems doable with some effort. I can take a quick video to try to capture the sound. Yes, only does it when it's on.
Thanks again!

 

[miks]

hey there, welcome!

hmm ok first off it just looks like the bulbs in the top of the instrument cluster may be blown or just missing. theres no bulbs behind the instruments, they are on top of it. if you take the front of the dash off i think you can just get to them and replace. they are the standard T5 wedge type.

the blower fan is only accessible from the engine bay however to access the fan its self, the whole blower fan/heater matrix box has to come out and be split. sadly its not something that can be done really while its still in the car. you do have to have the front of the dash off while you do this as theres a few screws holding the 3 air selection levers in place. you will also have to remove the coolant lines to the heater matrix. dont undo the heater matrix tap, only undo the hose clamps. the actual blower motor housing box is only held in place with 2x 10 or 13mm nuts up under where the wiper motor is. it may make it more easy if you take the wiper motor out. its just the one plastic nut where the wiper arm is and 2x 13mm bolts on the motor its self.

never know a fan to make strange sounds on a panda before. does it only do it when the fan is on?

Hi Dragon Man - I checked the instrument cluster bulbs and both are in place and appear to be ok (no obvious filament damage). I made a quick video showing the random tiny bulb I'm seeing behind the dashboard. You can see that I'm getting various instrument panel lights on (warning, etc.) so I assume there is power to the instrument panel assembly. What would you check next? Perhaps there's a break somewhere in the instrument panel assembly? I haven't had that off yet so not sure how easy that is to remove and diagnose. The video also shows some of the fan sound I'm hearing. It's more of a "groan" at the start but later turns into a sort of high pitched bird chirp.
Video: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ys6vp8h6y9ivzgx/88 Panda instrument panel and vent noise.mov?dl=0

 

[Dragon Man]

the sound is the fan bearings running dry. they use a journal bearing. you can oil it which will stop it however you do have to take the heater matrix box apart to get to it.

the bulb in the dash in your video should slot into a little receptacle near where the red square of the heat slider is.
it is possible that a replacement dash has been fitted from a car that never had illumination fitted. i would need to see a picture of the back of the dash panel to tell.

it is possible that a connector is not plugged in correctly. sadly i do not have access to my panda or i would have checked what wire feeds what on the plugs behind the instrument cluster.

i would pull one of the bulbs out, then test the 2 pads on the track to see which pad is the earth then try to use a continuity tester to see which pin on the plugs has the power to the illumination bulb going to it.

the bulbs can sometimes be a little funny sometimes turning them all the way causes them to not have a connection. try messing with the bulbs when you have the side lights on see if that helps

 

[miks]

the sound is the fan bearings running dry. they use a journal bearing. you can oil it which will stop it however you do have to take the heater matrix box apart to get to it.

the bulb in the dash in your video should slot into a little receptacle near where the red square of the heat slider is.
it is possible that a replacement dash has been fitted from a car that never had illumination fitted. i would need to see a picture of the back of the dash panel to tell.

it is possible that a connector is not plugged in correctly. sadly i do not have access to my panda or i would have checked what wire feeds what on the plugs behind the instrument cluster.

i would pull one of the bulbs out, then test the 2 pads on the track to see which pad is the earth then try to use a continuity tester to see which pin on the plugs has the power to the illumination bulb going to it.

the bulbs can sometimes be a little funny sometimes turning them all the way causes them to not have a connection. try messing with the bulbs when you have the side lights on see if that helps

Hi Dragon Man.
The fan noise does seem to "go away" after running for a while - perhaps the journals warm up or something. I'm going to focus on the lights now and maybe tackle that later.

Noted about the mini bulb - I can try to find the home for that behind the red square.

For the lights, I think the attached image shows the back of a cluster; panel lights at top (this is taken off an ebay item, not mine, but the front and top of the panel in my car look like this so I assume this is what it looks like on the back).
First, anything I should know about removing that panel? Unfortunately, I believe the right side panel attachment point is totally broken - when I opened it the first time there were various pieces of plastic over by that little light, vent control etc. It looks like the panel mounting bolt had been tightened too much at some point and cracked the mount. The left side mount appears to be intact. Is that left side bolt the only thing I need to remove to then be able to pull out the instrument panel? Looking at the image, it looks like there are a few big white electrical connections, and then the speedo connection. Not sure if I need to do something in particular to release all those from the panel.

(Coincidentally, looking closely at this image it almost looks like there's a break in the electrical "bridge" going up to the two instrument lights. I wonder if this is perhaps a weak point and might be what's going on with mine.)

Sorry for the newb question - but can you clarify the testing? I'm good with tools and mechanical things, but not so much with electrical. To my untrained eye it looks like there are *four* electrical contacts going to each panel illumination bulb. So, not sure which two I should be testing. Would be great if you could clarify or, better yet, draw on that image ("test between here and here... [indicating the points]" Pushing my luck I know ).
The good news is that looking at the back of the panel it's clear all those little bulbs are the various warning and other indicators on the panel. As far as I know, all those are lighting up correctly, so at a minimum I could verify that the instrument bulbs themselves are good by swapping them into another position (or swapping a known working panel lightbulb into one of the illumination sockets). I'm pretty sure both panel illumination bulbs are good so it's probably more a matter of diagnosing the circuit to see where the break is. Thanks for your continued input on this!

 

[Dragon Man]

so with the dash facia removed the instrument cluster is quite easy to take out, its just the 2 cross head screws at each side, then the speedo cable you remove from behind the battery through the rubber grommet. i actually recommend removing the speedo first. thats nice and easy to do.. theres like a little collar just pull it towards you.. it works the same way an air fitting works on a compressor line only it clicks into position and stays then to refit, make sure the collar is back and when you push it into the receptacle the collar pushed into position towards the end of the cable.

its possible it could be the little bit broken but ive never seen it. looking back at those clocks i can tell you that they are interesting because they do not have a temperature gauge in them only a fuel gauge (not really important for what we are doing, just something i have not seen before.. must have come out of the diesel that only europe had not us in the uk.)

anyway, i can see that the top pin on the plug that is speedo is the live for the illumination. so if all else fails you can run a wire to that, (solder it on) the connect it to the bulb that lights up behind the blower controls if i remember right a yellow with black stripe is the illumination wire colour in a panda.. you'll know it as the wires going to the bulb will be those colours.

theres only 2 contact points for the bulb in the dash. it looks like theres more as more tracks go to one contact pad but you'll find that its just the earth pad going off somewhere else be it to another bulb or another plug.

on a side note, if ever you plan on installing an after market radio, now is the time to wire in a ignition live. you can find an ignition live behind the light switch, a blue with yellow stripe wire if i remember right. you can also run down a spare illumination wire as some fancy after market radios can dim the display when you turn the lights on which is nice.
something to have a go at if you are feeling up to it

heres a little fun that i made some years back for my panda which i have sadly not had on the road since 2015

 

[miks]

so with the dash facia removed the instrument cluster is quite easy to take out, its just the 2 cross head screws at each side, then the speedo cable you remove from behind the battery through the rubber grommet. i actually recommend removing the speedo first. thats nice and easy to do.. theres like a little collar just pull it towards you.. it works the same way an air fitting works on a compressor line only it clicks into position and stays then to refit, make sure the collar is back and when you push it into the receptacle the collar pushed into position towards the end of the cable.

its possible it could be the little bit broken but ive never seen it. looking back at those clocks i can tell you that they are interesting because they do not have a temperature gauge in them only a fuel gauge (not really important for what we are doing, just something i have not seen before.. must have come out of the diesel that only europe had not us in the uk.)

anyway, i can see that the top pin on the plug that is speedo is the live for the illumination. so if all else fails you can run a wire to that, (solder it on) the connect it to the bulb that lights up behind the blower controls if i remember right a yellow with black stripe is the illumination wire colour in a panda.. you'll know it as the wires going to the bulb will be those colours.

theres only 2 contact points for the bulb in the dash. it looks like theres more as more tracks go to one contact pad but you'll find that its just the earth pad going off somewhere else be it to another bulb or another plug.

on a side note, if ever you plan on installing an after market radio, now is the time to wire in a ignition live. you can find an ignition live behind the light switch, a blue with yellow stripe wire if i remember right. you can also run down a spare illumination wire as some fancy after market radios can dim the display when you turn the lights on which is nice.
something to have a go at if you are feeling up to it

heres a little fun that i made some years back for my panda which i have sadly not had on the road since 2015

Hi Dragon Man - thanks so much for the additional info. Noted on the facia and speedo removal, and also the electrical tracks - hopefully I can figure things out with a bit of multimeter and continuity work. I'll take on this project in the coming days and will let you know how it goes.
And your illumination project is spectacular. What a display! Certainly must get some head-turning as you drive around with that. Hope you can get that one driving again.
We've had piles of snow here in central Oregon and the mighty Panda 4x4 has been stellar. It's funny to see such a tiny 4x4 next to the behemoth trucks around here. Thanks again.

 

[Dragon Man]

yes one can quite imagine! the panda is already a small car even here in the UK, next to some of the big stuff that you guys have it must be comical.

even without all the fancy power adaptive take off and breaking assist a modern vehicle has they do handle snow quite well. i have only used snow chains on a panda once and it was unstoppable with it being so light! thats a challenge for you, find snow chains that fit a 13 inch wheel. not may places have them now.

i always wished they did the mk2 panda 4x4 with a little diesel engine... well i also wish they did the mk3 4x4 with a diesel engine.. i think they did but it was never sold here in the uk. no idea why as we have a 2 wheel drive mk3 panda and its a fantastic car.

 

[miks]

yes one can quite imagine! the panda is already a small car even here in the UK, next to some of the big stuff that you guys have it must be comical.

even without all the fancy power adaptive take off and breaking assist a modern vehicle has they do handle snow quite well. i have only used snow chains on a panda once and it was unstoppable with it being so light! thats a challenge for you, find snow chains that fit a 13 inch wheel. not may places have them now.

i always wished they did the mk2 panda 4x4 with a little diesel engine... well i also wish they did the mk3 4x4 with a diesel engine.. i think they did but it was never sold here in the uk. no idea why as we have a 2 wheel drive mk3 panda and its a fantastic car.

Dragon Man - was heading out to dinner tonight and surprisingly one of the dash lights is on! I think perhaps when I jiggled them the other day? Anyway, I will inspect/jiggle the other one and bit more and see if I can awaken it.

Thought you'd appreciate the attached photo. I'm here in Central Oregon. There are plenty of ridiculously large trucks here - all driven by white men and one can only imagine the insecurities they have to drive these behemoths. The truck next to the Panda isn't even one of the largest ones here. It's funny but also sad. Personally I believe in climate change, and it seems simply untenable to me for us all to drive tanks around burning fossil fuels to oblivion. My partner and I loved being in Italy (where we first saw the Panda) and these cars and all the other relatively small cars on the road there just seemed so much more *sane* to us. I went out to eat at a local Italian restaurant tonight and chatted with the owner. I mentioned the Panda and showed him the truck pic - he asked me to send it to him because he wanted to share it with friends back in Tuscany. I said "perhaps it's the only one here in Bend (Oregon)." He said, "probably the only one in Oregon!". She's been great in the snow - we've pretty much left her in 4WD all the time the last few weeks.

 

[miks]

Dragon Man - well, looks like it was as you thought early on. Just jiggling the bulbs got them both working! I also took them out and bent the contact tabs slightly, cleaned them up, and applied some dielectric grease. So, hopefully they’re good for a while. Also got the heater illumination bulb back in its home. Thanks for all your help!!

 

[Dragon Man]

Wonderful! these cars can always be fixed like this which is what makes them so great. make sure you get the cavities internally rust proofed and these cars last forever.

yeah you could park a panda in the back of that thing haha, thats quite some vehicle that. i am not sure if you know but some of us newer UK drivers can only drive a vehicle up to 3.5 tons. anything over that we have to get a lorry licence! so i have been told, some of your pickups can be over that!
i bet that panda costs nothing to run compared to those big vehicles. i bet its saved you loads in fuel money.

don't be afraid to ask anything else. we'll all try to help if we can