Technical No cut towbar

[Dtpmatt1]

I find myself needing to fit a towbar to my wifes beloved Panda.
I've looked at the proposed towbar fitting instructions and saw that I would have to make a cut in her rear bumper, not a big deal for me to do but the look in her face when I said that told me everything

Does anyone know a make of towbar that is a direct fit to a 2017 1.2 pop that doesn't need any cutting doing?
I suspect that there isn't but I have to try asking/looking before she excepts the inevitable chop so to speak.

Thanks in advance.

 

[A3jeroen]

2017? Think you are in the "wrong" Panda (169) section.
Look on the Westfalia site for their vertical detachable towbar. On my Panda 100HP it needed a (pretty large) cutout, but none on a regular Panda IIRC. They will probably have one for the newer Panda as well.

gr J

 

[Doktoreq]

Hey A3jeroen, do you have any pictures of finished install? I'm kind of pondering the idea of putting towbar on my 100HP an would like to see what kind of bumper modification is involved. If the cutout is huge I'm probably leave it as it is.

 

[DaveMcT]

I had similar ideas. There are two ways to fit a 100HP with a no cut towbar.

1 fit a "standard" bumper that works with common towbars. You can add the 100HP wheel arch spats to the ordinary bumper. You might be able to get a bumper protection pad to cover the middle section "aping" the 100HP bumper.​

2 Modify the U shape bolt on towbar arm so it can drop beneath the bumper. A Panda cannot tow an especially heavy bumper so all should be well, but the job will not be homologated.​

 

[Dtpmatt1]

I ended up getting my towbar professionally fitted and it took 8hrs including the wiring. I'm glad I didn't take it on myself.

 

[DaveMcT]

Oops "Heavy bumper" I meant trailer.

 

[Dtpmatt1]

Oops "Heavy bumper" I meant trailer.

Ive pulled 500kgs.
It wasn't happy but doable.

BTW. My towbar didn't need a cut out after all.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Fitting is not difficult and half a day would see it done if you are experienced. Allow a day if you want to plod at it. I have a Panda and fitted a westfalia bar which removes downwards. It appeared well made and finished. I fitted it to my 2017 car and moved to to my new one in 2019. Both bumpers needed cutting. Neither of the cuts was visible unless you really stared at it. Almost invisible and it didnt show when Isold the car or affect its value. The bumper is soft material I cut mine with Stanley knife. The templates supplied are good and dont remove anything thats not necessary. I recommend the use of a dedicated wiring kit it really makes the job much easier, My only word of warning is whomever fits the bar, treat the plastic parts with care they are not the strongest things. Panda MJ4x4 is rated at a 900kg limit so the trailer weight is not too muc for the car but 400kgs would be enough for the 1.2 although as pointed out above its capable of more at a pinch.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Hey A3jeroen, do you have any pictures of finished install? I'm kind of pondering the idea of putting towbar on my 100HP an would like to see what kind of bumper modification is involved. If the cutout is huge I'm probably leave it as it is.

100HP does need a visible bumper cut. I have seen a few fitted and they have looked OK. I think there are examples if you google this. I do seem to remember that there is no quoted towing weight for the 100HP though.

 

[koalar]

I do seem to remember that there is no quoted towing weight for the 100HP though.

100HP
800 braked
400 If not braked

 

[The Panda Nut]

100HP
800 braked
400 If not braked

I feel the 100hp might need different bump stops for towing to extend the 2.5" available suspension bump travel. I read that the Fiat couipe bump stops fitted straight on. I can confirm they do allow an extra couple of inches of wheel movement when fitted, and that this makes a HUGE improvement in the ride without notable changes in the handing being apparent.

 

[koalar]

I feel the 100hp might need different bump stops for towing to extend the 2.5" available suspension bump travel. I read that the Fiat couipe bump stops fitted straight on. I can confirm they do allow an extra couple of inches of wheel movement when fitted, and that this makes a HUGE improvement in the ride without notable changes in the handing being apparent.

The bump stops are carefully designed for all loads and conditions.

When fully loaded they became part of the suspension

400 and 800 are the figures as quoted in the 100HP supplement

Putting shorter bump stops will cause the rear to sag more when loaded, remove weight from the front brakes

In my mind the exact opposite to what’s required

But I could be wrong

 

[The Panda Nut]

Well I am normally in complete agreement with you on not modifying things that have been engineered and then tested. Most;y I suspect mods just make tings worse and can reduce safety. This is one mod that I did let through. I used to hurl the Panda 100 about at high speed at that time and I found it made no difference to driving other than removing severe instability on bumpy roads. My point was I suppose that adding a load on the rear of a hundred will sit it onto its stops. Even two passengers get a very hard time unless the road is very good. When towing with the correct nose weight suspension deflection is normally a couple of inches and this reduces the available spring travel to almost nothing so the actual affects of towing are not pleasant and will result in, at the least unpleasant road behaviour. It would almost certainly lunch the standard bump stops in a very short distance. My opinion of the revised bump stops was it allowed the rear shocks an opportunity to work over a substantially increased wheel throw and made it feel far more refined which really suited its micro Q car credentials.. I believe this would result in a substantial improvement when towing by removing the the constant jarring and bumpstop intervention. The regular failure of the rear stops on the 100HP probably means some are being driven without bumpstops which is a greater concern especially if its just one side thats fallen off. As the Febi coupe stops were a tenner and fiat wanted £60 I tried it initially to save money. My feeling was it made a significant improvement driven solo. Allowing the 100HP springs are probably firmer I would definitiely do this again. My thoughts are that once the car is sat on its bump stops weight transference issues and handling effects are worse. I never fitted a tow bar to my 100HP due to the low nose limit and I never found a bar that didnt disfigure its stylish italian throughbred good looks. I am sure a 100HP would tow superbly in terms of engine power gearing braking and steering. The TA 4x4 won its class in tow car of the year in 2015 and it was ballasted to close on its max limit. My experience is it is capable of towing more much than its rating and the MJ is given a higher towing limt on the basis of its ability to pull away better on hills. My towing experience is sufficient to have experienced some situations I would never wish to repeat and while I am happy to tow at speed, I am now very cautious of when and where. Its also even more important to ensure that load ing is absolutely right and the suspension and tryres are in excellent condition. I am now highly tuned to situations where towing instability is created and where spped reduction is required. The demise of the towing tesr is a retrograde step IMO. The light weight of the Panda counts heavily against it when towing. At least the 4x4 has better weight distribution and a bit more kilos. Just like me.

 

[DaveMcT]

Ive pulled 500kgs.
It wasn't happy but doable.

BTW. My towbar didn't need a cut out after all.

Towbar carries trailer nose weight 5% to 7% of the total trailer weight. It does not carry the actual trailer weight.

https://www.gocaravanning.com/towcars/Fiat-Panda-04-onwards-1-2-Dynamic-5d-Tow-Weights.html says -
Panda 169 1.2 Dynamic Kerb weight: 860 kg
Manufacturer's towing capacity: Un-braked - 400 kg Braked - 800 kg.

 

[koalar]

It’s got over complicated

It’s all going to depend on what the intended use of the tow bar is

Adding 30L (22kg) approx of fuel drops the rear 44mm approx

So on a standard panda adding 20kg of nose weight is the same as Driving with a full tank of petrol

Problems will start to arise if you add say fuel + trailer + rear passengers or luggage

 

[A3jeroen]

Just back from Croatia, so it took a little longer.
I thought it didn't look very bad.
And for everybody theorizing about bumpstops and other 100HP bashing... I've pulled my boat (385Kg unbraked) with all my campinggear in the back of my 100HP several times all the way to Dalmatia and back without any problems.
I now do the same with my Abarth

 

[DaveMcT]

44mm of suspension sag with just 22kg of added weight looks like at least a decimal point error. If it really sagged that much, adding two people (100 to 150kg on the back seat) would have the car on it's bump stops. That simply doesn't happen.

 

[koalar]

44mm of suspension sag with just 22kg of added weight looks like at least a decimal point error. If it really sagged that much, adding two people (100 to 150kg on the back seat) would have the car on it's bump stops. That simply doesn't happen.

Nope looks right to me

670 ride hight empty tank
626mm ride hight full tank

Assuming the tank is completely empty you can only add 35 litres I think ?

Don’t forget the axil moves in an arc so will not be totally linear

The original bump stops are designed to be part of the suspension when fully loaded

 

[A3jeroen]

Only thing I can say: Look at the pictures. All my campinggear in it and boattrailer on the hitch and no suspensionproblems.
No theory, but real life practice for at least 6 times 3500 Km's.

gr J

 

[Doktoreq]

Just back from Croatia, so it took a little longer.
I thought it didn't look very bad.
And for everybody theorizing about bumpstops and other 100HP bashing... I've pulled my boat (385Kg unbraked) with all my campinggear in the back of my 100HP several times all the way to Dalmatia and back without any problems.
I now do the same with my Abarth

Thanks for the photos. From normal height looks surprisingly decent. I might have some ideas how to make it even less noticeable but I have to come back home from work abroad first.

Do you remember which Westfalia vertical detachable towbar are you using?