Off Topic New Car ideas

[StevenRB45]

The real competition in terms of reliability comes from the Pacific Rim, not Europe.

If I were buying a long term keeper, I'd have more confidence in a Hyundai than a Citroen.

Agree entirely in principle if you are being entirely rational...but for some reason the best selling cars are rarely most reliable ones.

Probably because they also tend to be intensely dull. That and Europe has upped it's game to the point that reliability is for most cars the default. If they're all reasonably reliable then that USP disappears...yes you can get a 7 year warranty but who cares if you're on a 3 year lease cycle?

Is assume firefly the 3 and 4 cylinder will be the last petrol engine fitted in any fiat for the next 10 years certainly the last fiat made engine

I would assume it will die when any models fitted with it are replaced. It's likely any new cars designed from this point will be on the CMP architecture, both to reduce production costs and allow electrification and hybrids.

They could spend money re-engineering that to fit a different engine with pretty much exactly the same specs or they could kill the one that doesn't fit 95% of the cars they build as a group. The Firefly does nothing the Puretech doesn't do (other than a 4 cyl variant but the power options are quite similar) so there's no reason they'd run with both into the future.

Regards other markets...Fiat and PSA small cars don't have a huge presence outside of Europe they're even struggling in China currently. All the big Chrysler stuff in America has very little to do with what we get mechanically. Where ever it goes it's unlikely people will be lashing money at new petrol engines (other Mazda who I assume are just planning to be out of business in 2040.)

 

[jrkitching]

who cares if you're on a 3 year lease cycle?

Exactly. Almost all new car buying decisions are made by folks who couldn't care less how reliable/maintainable it will be in later life. These folks generally think in terms of the monthly lease payment, not the purchase price.

One consequence of this is that sound, easily maintained but utterly boring cars, especially small ones, are often more popular used than new; the Vauxhall Nova (for those who remember it) being as good an example as any.

If you're one of the small minority buying a new car with the intention of keeping it for ten years or more, you're likely looking at things from a very different perspective.

 

[StevenRB45]

Exactly. Almost all new car buying decisions are made by folks who couldn't care less how reliable/maintainable it will be in later life. These folks generally think in terms of the monthly lease payment, not the purchase price.

One consequence of this is that sound, easily maintained but utterly boring cars, especially small ones, are often more popular used than new; the Vauxhall Nova (for those who remember it) being as good an example as any.

If you're one of the small minority buying a new car with the intention of keeping it for ten years or more, you're likely looking at things from a very different perspective.

Again I agree, but unless you buy new then they pay their money and you live with their cast offs.

The family fleet is my Mazda, a car which I bought specifically because I wanted something to last long term and has filled that brief well over 6 years. Then the wife's Citroën which she bought because she liked the way it looked and green colour. That was always going to be a disposable car but we ended up keeping it as there's nothing she liked to replace it and to be honest I like it as well.

Good news for FF I suppose as you'll probably see me swearing about it in the I'm feeling grumpy today and have prior warning about what goes wrong after 3 years on a PSA. So far though it has been absolutely fine and probably will continue to be given a friend of mine had a C3 that he bought for 150 quid as a stop gap car (to replace a constantly broken 3 series BMW) ended up lasting him two years and only died because the timing belt went when he'd exceeded the interval by a factor of 2.

 

[varesecrazy]

Agree entirely

Regards other markets...Fiat and PSA small cars don't have a huge presence outside of Europe they're even struggling in China currently. All the big Chrysler stuff in America has very little to do with what we get mechanically. Where ever it goes it's unlikely people will be lashing money at new petrol engines (other Mazda who I assume are just planning to be out of business in 2040.)

Fiat Brazil is still massive..
Thats who developed the Firefly motors..
They still use the Uno badge


French stuff.. no idea

The 505 was popular in Africa for 30+ years

 

[DaveMcT]

And most likely it will be a FIAT group car and possibly a JEEP.

I've developed a soft spot for the Jeep Renegade. It's made on the same line as Fiat 500L but is much better looking (IMO). Early models had auto gearbox issues. but that should be sorted by now.

 

[DaveMcT]

Exactly. Almost all new car buying decisions are made by folks who couldn't care less how reliable/maintainable it will be in later life. These folks generally think in terms of the monthly lease payment, not the purchase price.

One consequence of this is that sound, easily maintained but utterly boring cars, especially small ones, are often more popular used than new; the Vauxhall Nova (for those who remember it) being as good an example as any.

If you're one of the small minority buying a new car with the intention of keeping it for ten years or more, you're likely looking at things from a very different perspective.

A work colleague has just bought a Merc diesel SUV with all the bells and whistles. She is tiny an it is frankly ridiculous, but its all based on monthly repayments and her mileage is low. In two or three years time she will get something else.

 

[AndyRKett]

I really don’t get the repeated conversations on here about the cars people buy.

Most people will buy the car they want not what they need this is nothing new, it’s not going to change any time soon and it’s the reason the market is full of high spec cars.

More over, having a “fancy car” is a life style choice and they inevitably want a “new” looking car to keep up with the Jones’s So all the manufacturers are doing is catering to what people want, if people didn’t want it then they wouldn’t buy it and therefore the deal or the car wouldn’t be available.

Leases now offer people with even lower budgets to get in the new car game by tying them into a system of buying new cars for ever more, keeping the second had market flush with available motors.


When I checked out the ID3 the sales man even made a comment about leasing means that VW have more control over the supply and therefore they can control the second hand prices better, which I think he failed to realise isn’t relevant to someone who is never going to own the car anyway.

 

[jrkitching]

therefore they can control the second hand prices better, which I think he failed to realise isn’t relevant to someone who is never going to own the car anyway.

Although they don't realise it, and generally never give them a moment's thought, second hand prices are hugely relevant to folks on the never-ending pcp bandwagon. The residual end of lease value is a big number when it comes to determining the size of the monthly payment. Having some control over secondhand prices allows manufacturers to offer more competitive finance plans, because they have more certainty that they will actually be able to realise the GFV at end of lease.

Sometimes cars with similar list prices have vastly different monthly repayments. Some of this is down to the expected depreciation over the term of the lease, but another factor is that manufacturers often artificially inflate the list price to enable dealers to offer attractive part exchange valuations.

 

[DaveMcT]

I should add the Merc I was dissing above is HOOGE. Its too wide for most car parks and mustl be a hassle on narrow streets rammed with parked cars. I'm not saying she should have chosen a Smart, but something that big will be a liability.

 

[AndyRKett]

Although they don't realise it, and generally never give them a moment's thought, second hand prices are hugely relevant to folks on the never-ending pcp bandwagon. The residual end of lease value is a big number when it comes to determining the size of the monthly payment. Having some control over secondhand prices allows manufacturers to offer more competitive finance plans, because they have more certainty that they will actually be able to realise the GFV at end of lease.

Sometimes cars with similar list prices have vastly different monthly repayments. Some of this is down to the expected depreciation over the term of the lease, but another factor is that manufacturers often artificially inflate the list price to enable dealers to offer attractive part exchange valuations.

It’s all a big game at the moment of manufacturers controlling prices, basically the prices of new cars have gone up massively in recent years, if they can keep prices high then they can resell ex lease or ex pcp cars for much more as well.

Obviously if the initial price is 25k and it looses 10k then you still have a 15 worth of car to resell.

If the car is 15k and looses 10k and the dealers only have a 5k car to sell, as with lease or pcp cars the person “using” the car for the lease or pcp period are really only paying for the 10k loss plus a bit of profit for the company, so ultimately the used car price isn’t overly relevant, the main factor in deciding the monthly figure is the expected depreciation rather than the expected “value” at the end of the deal. If the value is much less that is expected that means that the depreciation has been higher than planned.

When I paid off my PCP car the gfv was about £7k and that’s the cash amount I had to pay but the value of the car was around £15k at the time even now it’s still worth more that the £7k but what the manufacturers are banking on is you paying for everything but the last £7k and you give the car back they then sell it for a much higher price for a profit.

So in short the second hand values have more of a part to play in gaining profits for the manufacturers during the first and second owners, than they do in deciding your monthly payment.

 

[Jockcl500]

It’s all a big game at the moment of manufacturers controlling prices, basically the prices of new cars have gone up massively in recent years, if they can keep prices high then they can resell ex lease or ex pcp cars for much more as well.

Obviously if the initial price is 25k and it looses 10k then you still have a 15 worth of car to resell.

If the car is 15k and looses 10k and the dealers only have a 5k car to sell, as with lease or pcp cars the person “using” the car for the lease or pcp period are really only paying for the 10k loss plus a bit of profit for the company, so ultimately the used car price isn’t overly relevant, the main factor in deciding the monthly figure is the expected depreciation rather than the expected “value” at the end of the deal. If the value is much less that is expected that means that the depreciation has been higher than planned.

When I paid off my PCP car the gfv was about £7k and that’s the cash amount I had to pay but the value of the car was around £15k at the time even now it’s still worth more that the £7k but what the manufacturers are banking on is you paying for everything but the last £7k and you give the car back they then sell it for a much higher price for a profit.

So in short the second hand values have more of a part to play in gaining profits for the manufacturers during the first and second owners, than they do in deciding your monthly payment.

Is the GFV not just if you are purchasing the car at the end of the lease/pcp?
At the end of the lease, and you have decided to hand it back and have another new car from them, do they not value the car and give that figure minus the outstanding against the new deal?
I must admit I have always owned everything I have, and never gone down the never ending new lease or PCP car route.
When value is decided is it the dealer buying at price or selling at price, If a dealer is selling a car for £15k, then if you were selling that same car to the dealer the price would be much lower.

 

[StevenRB45]

It's been quite interesting to see how the movement at the top of the market has affected the bottom of the market.

If you wanted to buy outright with 6-10 grand 10 years ago you'd be in a 1-4 year old car in the focus class. Now you'd be looking at 4-10 years old..but the younger cars are not ones you'd want to run out of warranty.

Combine that with dieselgate firming up the prices of older ulez compliant petrol cars..and covid both restricting supply of new cars and the uncertainty pushing people towards perhaps spending a deposit on buying a car outright rather than on the never never as your job is not guaranteed and it's been rather odd.

2017 with 50-60k miles on it my car would have been worth about 4...2020 with 85k on it it's worth about 3. If it had low miles on it it would be worth about 5 at a dealer in the current climate when I paid 9 in 2014 from a main dealer at 2.5 years old.

Inflation is obviously a thing but the prices at the top have affected all levels of the market.

 

[Jockcl500]

I should add the Merc I was dissing above is HOOGE. Its too wide for most car parks and mustl be a hassle on narrow streets rammed with parked cars. I'm not saying she should have chosen a Smart, but something that big will be a liability.

I have a Merc it is big and at more than 5metres long, consideration needs to be taken when parking as most car parks, as they are designed for small/medium length cars, and with all 2 door cars the width of the space is more of an issue than the 4 door equivalent, as more space is needed to get the door open enough to get out, but just because it's big doesn't necessarily mean that it's difficult to drive.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Is the GFV not just if you are purchasing the car at the end of the lease/pcp?
At the end of the lease, and you have decided to hand it back and have another new car from them, do they not value the car and give that figure minus the outstanding against the new deal?

Not on a lease no. You have no option to purchase, and thus no share of any equity the vehicle may or may not have.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Considering "huge" cars. When my Ibiza decided, at just over 2 years old, that it wasn't getting on with it's Turbo and had to spend almost 2 weeks in the garage whilst they sorted it all out and ended up fitting a new one (Thank goodness under warranty), I was allocated a hire car from one of the big hire companies. The car allocated was not available so I was given a Passat estate as it was the only vehicle available. Stepping into it I was quite excited to be driving such a luxury car but within a day I found I wasn't really enjoying it very much. On the open road out to my boy's houses it was great. In town I didn't like it at all and the only supermarket I liked visiting was Aldi who seem to have the biggest and widest parking spaces of all by quite a margin. In the end I actually handed it back early and just used Becky (our Panda) if I couldn't go where I wanted on the bus.

 

[Jockcl500]

Considering "huge" cars. When my Ibiza decided, at just over 2 years old, that it wasn't getting on with it's Turbo and had to spend almost 2 weeks in the garage whilst they sorted it all out and ended up fitting a new one (Thank goodness under warranty), I was allocated a hire car from one of the big hire companies. The car allocated was not available so I was given a Passat estate as it was the only vehicle available. Stepping into it I was quite excited to be driving such a luxury car but within a day I found I wasn't really enjoying it very much. On the open road out to my boy's houses it was great. In town I didn't like it at all and the only supermarket I liked visiting was Aldi who seem to have the biggest and widest parking spaces of all by quite a margin. In the end I actually handed it back early and just used Becky (our Panda) if I couldn't go where I wanted on the bus.

One of the benefits of the Panda is not being too worried out it, if it were to get smashed, it wouldn't be the end of the world, as they aren't a rare car.
When I had parked my Merc at work, after having just spent thousands on it making it perfect, some idiot drove into it, it was very annoying dealing with hopeless insurance companies and it took 2 months to get it fixed, I was provided with a Mercedes S-class from a well known hire car company, I like petrol cars and they gave me a diesel, although it was much more friendly on fuel than the 20 ish mpg that I get, the novelty wore off quickly as I missed my own car.
I was sick of the sight of it in the end, but that wasn't the end, as the hire charges have only just been settled in court after 16months, I can see why they were arguing about the cost as it was very expensive at £370 per day, but had they authorised the repairs quicker which were about £4500 it would have been much cheaper.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

One of the benefits of the Panda is not being too worried out it, if it were to get smashed, it wouldn't be the end of the world

Indeed! Our Panda is pretty good bodily with an almost total lack of rust, but when you look closely there are numerous minor dents and imperfections - looks wonderful from a few feet away though. This suits Mrs J just fine. She has repeatedly said to me when we've been looking at cars, that she wants to find a dealer who sells mechanically perfect but slightly dented and pre-scratched cars.

 

[jrkitching]

She has repeatedly said to me when we've been looking at cars, that she wants to find a dealer who sells mechanically perfect but slightly dented and pre-scratched cars.

Go to Gibraltar; there's hardly a car in the place that isn't scratched and dented. If you've ever tried parking on the street there, you'll soon find out why.

I reckon the local dealers go round during the PDI with a small hammer & add a few, just to get you started.

 

[Dave lee]

Probably the monkeys on Gibraltar

 

[Jockcl500]

Indeed! Our Panda is pretty good bodily with an almost total lack of rust, but when you look closely there are numerous minor dents and imperfections - looks wonderful from a few feet away though. This suits Mrs J just fine. She has repeatedly said to me when we've been looking at cars, that she wants to find a dealer who sells mechanically perfect but slightly dented and pre-scratched cars.

HaHa Pre-scratched, that's where I have been going wrong all these years.
I am slightly obsessed with perfect, inside and out if it looks like it has been used it's not quite good enough, well for my merc that's how it is.
For the Panda I have tried not to bother too much, which is a relief, although I do find myself looking at new parts on ecp adding to the basket, thinking I could change those, like a new set of springs and shocks, nothing wrong with the ones on the car(other than some rust)
so far I have resisted the temptation to spend several hundred on parts I don't really need.