Technical Negotiating Dealer Repair Cost?

[SB1500]

Any tips for negotiating with Fiat over some repairs?

Need my timing belt and water pump done, which they quoted £242 parts including labour. Meant to be done at 70k, I just passed 105k.

Also, the handbrake needed redone as its been welded. Personally I don't even know exactly what that means but they said its a dealer only part so if and when I get it fixed it'll need to be with them anyway. £127 for that.

Since they'll be really getting into the Panda for the timing belt and water pump, reckon there's a way I could convince them to only add the cost of the handbrake parts to the £242 and get it done inside the labour of the Timing job?

And if this is slightly possible.. Best tips you have for negotiating this stuff? Or is repairs a different game to new car sales and non-negotiable?


* these problems were identified by fiat when they serviced my Panda in February. Maybe coming back to them will show my loyalty and they might be willing to give me some sort of offer?

** who the f*ck welds a handbrake.. What do they achieve and how is this worth it over buying a new handbrake cable?! Can someone explain that as a bonus question as that kind of baffles my mind!

Thanks again, SB

 

[Wee Smurf]

You could join the club and get 15% discount with your card.

 

[muz379]

Have you not got a local garage who can carry out these repairs . My local garage charges £175 for a timing belt and water pump change last time I checked .

What exactly is the issue with the handbrake ? If it is just the cable these certainly are not a dealer part and can be bought off a popular auction site . In fact you could get a whole new handbrake assembly from a scrap yard or from an auction site and fit that yourself relatively easily .

If there are no local garages you would trust to do a timing and water pump change then the best you can do is ask a dealer . I personally have never dealt with a dealer for repairs so do not know how much negotiation they would be open to , but as their parts rates are fixed they will probably also claim their labor rates are fixed . Its not even as if they are in the same region of the car doing these jobs to make use of the labour time . Say you asked them to change a timing belt and look at the alternator belt & pulley at the same time they might be inclined to do that . But a handbrake and a timing belt are separate parts of the car altogether .

 

[SB1500]

You could join the club and get 15% discount with your card.

The guy told me he'd never heard of that, but he'd be willing to look into it for me. Being there on the day, and not yet a member, I went on with the service. I'll PM about membership here!

 

[SB1500]

Have you not got a local garage who can carry out these repairs . My local garage charges £175 for a timing belt and water pump change last time I checked .

What exactly is the issue with the handbrake ? If it is just the cable these certainly are not a dealer part and can be bought off a popular auction site . In fact you could get a whole new handbrake assembly from a scrap yard or from an auction site and fit that yourself relatively easily .

If there are no local garages you would trust to do a timing and water pump change then the best you can do is ask a dealer . I personally have never dealt with a dealer for repairs so do not know how much negotiation they would be open to , but as their parts rates are fixed they will probably also claim their labor rates are fixed . Its not even as if they are in the same region of the car doing these jobs to make use of the labour time . Say you asked them to change a timing belt and look at the alternator belt & pulley at the same time they might be inclined to do that . But a handbrake and a timing belt are separate parts of the car altogether .

There's one local mechanic who my parents went to years ago and he said if I supplied parts (my request as I want a genuine kit) he'd charge £100 for the belt and pump to be fitted and if it's as simple as he thinks it is he'd knock a further £20 off it.

BUT, as I'm still unable to source the kit any cheaper than £68 through Shop4Parts (other sources welcome) for a genuine kit I'm looking at a total of £170 ish. A decent enough saving I suppose, but Fiat gives me a guarantee which might just be worth the extra £72?

Plus they told me the handbrake was welded and couldn't be adjusted (tried asking for more detail but apparently that's it) and that whatever the repair involved it'd need dealer only parts that are specific to my Panda so either way essentially Id be giving them money.

That's why the idea has come about to try talk them into doing that cheaper with the Timing.

My handbrake (compared to my mums Astra) does lift up very high. Whereas the Astra barely pulls up and it's tight and secure. My Panda will also not hold without sliding on steep hills before the handbrake seems to securely hold it. I'm not sure if this is all normal on a Panda but I'd certainly not like my car rolling into property, people or other vehicles or that's my motoring Down the drain for what.. Five years until insurance goes back down :-(

 

[muz379]

There's one local mechanic who my parents went to years ago and he said if I supplied parts (my request as I want a genuine kit) he'd charge £100 for the belt and pump to be fitted and if it's as simple as he thinks it is he'd knock a further £20 off it.

BUT, as I'm still unable to source the kit any cheaper than £68 through Shop4Parts (other sources welcome) for a genuine kit I'm looking at a total of £170 ish. A decent enough saving I suppose, but Fiat gives me a guarantee which might just be worth the extra £72?

Plus they told me the handbrake was welded and couldn't be adjusted (tried asking for more detail but apparently that's it) and that whatever the repair involved it'd need dealer only parts that are specific to my Panda so either way essentially Id be giving them money.

That's why the idea has come about to try talk them into doing that cheaper with the Timing.

My handbrake (compared to my mums Astra) does lift up very high. Whereas the Astra barely pulls up and it's tight and secure. My Panda will also not hold without sliding on steep hills before the handbrake seems to securely hold it. I'm not sure if this is all normal on a Panda but I'd certainly not like my car rolling into property, people or other vehicles or that's my motoring Down the drain for what.. Five years until insurance goes back down :-(

I personally would not value a guarantee on a timing belt job at £72 . As long as you inspect the belt prior to installation to make sure there is no defect you are unlikely to have any problem that they would not claim falls outside the remit of their warranty anyway

I still fail to understand what part of the handbrake has been welded but by the sounds of it this dealer sounds like they are trying it on . You can get all parts for the handbrake from a well known auction site . Ask them specifically what the part is they are proposing to replace . If it is just the handbrake cable walk away now . Any decent garage would charge you £50 parts inc maximum for that job

 

[SB1500]

I personally would not value a guarantee on a timing belt job at £72 . As long as you inspect the belt prior to installation to make sure there is no defect you are unlikely to have any problem that they would not claim falls outside the remit of their warranty anyway

I still fail to understand what part of the handbrake has been welded but by the sounds of it this dealer sounds like they are trying it on . You can get all parts for the handbrake from a well known auction site . Ask them specifically what the part is they are proposing to replace . If it is just the handbrake cable walk away now . Any decent garage would charge you £50 parts inc maximum for that job

Just got off the phone to Fiat, he said he'll certainly look into what they can do about possibly saving some money getting the Timing Belt / Pump and the Handbrake job done at the same time. On top of this, there's a good Fiat club in NI where I can get 15% off so hopefully I could get the lot done.

He did mention something about the back brake drum? So maybe this 'handbrake' adjustment thing for £127 includes rear brake components too? Let me know what you think on this one if you have time :O

 

[AB100]

Just got off the phone to Fiat, he said he'll certainly look into what they can do about possibly saving some money getting the Timing Belt / Pump and the Handbrake job done at the same time. On top of this, there's a good Fiat club in NI where I can get 15% off so hopefully I could get the lot done.

He did mention something about the back brake drum? So maybe this 'handbrake' adjustment thing for £127 includes rear brake components too? Let me know what you think on this one if you have time :O

If you can see it, you can photograph it.


Tell them you wish to consult on the handbrake issue but need an image of what that issue is. presumably the lever at the drum end where the handbrake cable attaches. But you need more detail.

 

[Louie Bee]

If it's like the MJ handbrake the auto adjusters are an f'ing pain and seem to be a FIAT only part.

this is what they should do

[ame]https://youtu.be/lpDkQl4CHLo[/ame]

If there is too much travel on the shoe the ratchet moves to the next spline (When I let go in the vid) and when you let off the brake it rotates the adjuster out (When I push back together)... until there is no longer too much shoe travel before it makes contact with the drum. at this point the adjuster don't open out enough to trip over to the next spline.


However if handbrake cable is too tight the shoes can be held out of the proper resting point and the spline can not turn enough to let the ratchet get to the rest point (If I were to not push together enough in the vid), so it can't move any more and gets stuck.

If these little plates fall off the shoes will auto un adjust all the way back in without. they are a pain to put back while the shoes are on the car (been there done that).



If these little pointy bits get bent they won't adjust - they get stuck


If the thread gets brake dust / croded they won't turn so won't adjust.

there seems to be a slim chance that they ever will adjust - and at the FIAT price I can see wny someone would weld these little buggers to get through an MOT and seel the car quick.

Few more pics when I replaced both cylinders, shoes, adjusters, drums, fitting kit and cable for good measure. drum was a mess after I lost a shoe lining. :bang: it just fell off the shoe so I ended up with metal to metal . they were bosch shoes too












think about half of the parts cost were the adjusters

 

[Louie Bee]

presumably the lever at the drum end where the handbrake cable attaches. But you need more detail.

.

On the MJ panda the cable attaches to the shoe... Nothing like the Uno / Cento setup :bang:

 

[varesecrazy]

I've NEVER had a FIAT with rear drums that self-adjust.. was hoping the brand new punto would be better..but NO..

I'm now quite used to adjusting the rod to get the shoes in the right place.. that improves BOTH the handbrake AND the foot pedal travel / feel..for @6,000 miles

 

[Louie Bee]

Of the many FIATs I've had I think the T reg brava has been by far the best for handbrake. never saw the insides and passed every MOT while we had her

Odd routine to get the adjusters to work... press the foot brake 40 times.

The cable kept winding backwards though but could adjust it while waiting at the traffic lights

Unos Cinqs and Seicentos can be a pain but OK as long as the rear leaver is freed off at the pivot point. Good that the adjusters are part of the shoe so no seperate cost.

The Panda has been the worst in terms of fixing it / cost of parts / triky job. suppose when it works as it should there is no weak point pivot to go rusty so less likley to fail in the first place..

Checking handbrake operation by jacking the car up and trying to spin the rear wheels by hand has become something I do for both our FIATs a week or so before the MOT as I expect something probabley needs to be meddled with for it ot pass the test.

 

[SB1500]

Hi , excellent reply. Honestly I am very pleased now and understand the job and the problem I am faced with my Panda.

If I'm going to fork out £127 to Fiat, do you reckon the new parts will last me another 5 years or so? As £127 split between 5 years is reasonable enough, but if it's likely to go bad before the next MOTs then £127 can be quite steep!

Slowly learning that even reliable cars like the Panda can have their moody components too

I think once my car is sorted and money builds I owe the forum a sizeable donation!

 

[varesecrazy]

If I'm going to fork out £127 to Fiat, do you reckon the new parts will last me another 5 years or so? As £127 split between 5 years is reasonable enough, but if it's likely to go bad before the next MOTs then £127 can be quite steep!

that's a LOT, is the part FIAT only..??
should really be a service item..so sold elesewhere.

in my experience it's a job needed doing at EACH MOT, so I suppose IF it actually works properly.., then worth it ..maybe..

however,
manually adjusting takes @ 1/2 hour.. so that's
@£30 a year at a local garage..or free if you do it..,

on reflection , I MAY have had one FIAT that had a decent handbrake.. 1st Tipo..

they were much BIGGER in diameter than the older cars..,
but somehow I've no recollection of fiddling with them the same..
in fairness it was a while ago..,

A friend did tell me that an over-tight cable stops the self-adjusters.., but I've had several FIAT's from almost new..so see no reason why they have been set-up badly.

 

[Louie Bee]

My pics are from the diesel panda 2005. The auto adjusters were Fiat only at around 70 quid. I did not want to buy em

There is no easy way of manual adjustment as the teeth on the spline are soft and snap if turned... Or the timy plate falls out and the blood starts to boil... Been there too.

Unless you weld or glue them each year but will be no 30 min job.

As you need a cambelt too yau have a petrol panda. You better pray they don't have the same adjusters as mine and yours are not dealer only too.

 

[bluejohn125]

A lot of useful information there... I had a similar problem a few years ago with my high mileage 1.2 Brava Formula.. it had the "MJ" setup shown with the larger drums (matching the ABS front brakes) and the fiddly Fiat adjusters that I had to stump up for at the dealers, also got new Fiat (Ebay) drums and shoes. One of the old adjusters had somehow failed and scored away the backplate but it was useable.

Regarding SB's Panda if it's a basic version then it may have a simpler cheaper setup... he really should spend half an hour removing the back wheel and brake drum to have a look inside (can't believe he hasn't done this already with all the work already done on the car in a garage with a mechanic...). Worth understanding the situation even if you're repeating work you might be paying for IMO.

But if the Fiat quote includes let's say a pair of fairly expensive adjusters AND doing the other side of the car too and checking that the efficiencies etc. are correct afterwards (I'd hope that Fiat would do this) then it's not too bad I'd say.

Also I thought that there was an oil leak that wanted to be looked at by Fiat?

 

[SB1500]

A lot of useful information there... I had a similar problem a few years ago with my high mileage 1.2 Brava Formula.. it had the "MJ" setup shown with the larger drums (matching the ABS front brakes) and the fiddly Fiat adjusters that I had to stump up for at the dealers, also got new Fiat (Ebay) drums and shoes. One of the old adjusters had somehow failed and scored away the backplate but it was useable.

Regarding SB's Panda if it's a basic version then it may have a simpler cheaper setup... he really should spend half an hour removing the back wheel and brake drum to have a look inside (can't believe he hasn't done this already with all the work already done on the car in a garage with a mechanic...). Worth understanding the situation even if you're repeating work you might be paying for IMO.

But if the Fiat quote includes let's say a pair of fairly expensive adjusters AND doing the other side of the car too and checking that the efficiencies etc. are correct afterwards (I'd hope that Fiat would do this) then it's not too bad I'd say.

Also I thought that there was an oil leak that wanted to be looked at by Fiat?

Hello, thanks for your reply. I'd say it is fairly simple, and my uncle who helped me before could certainly help me if I was doing a routine replacement of my rear brakes or their components, but from this thread I understand there's a pretty complicated Fiat/Panda specific part that is worn or playing up. I am a bit concerned we'd end up tampering with this and making the car un-driveable. Even though I haven't looked at it myself, I can now picture the problem from other posts and replies I've gotten. I am however leaving it for a few more months (until it significantly worsens / doesn't hold).

As for the oil leak, well it's been almost two months since my Fiat service when they outlined the problem. I check my oil weekly and it's still at the MAX end of the indicator. None lost yet, and I was told keeping the oil topped up will ensure no damage to my car whatsoever until I can comfortably afford to get it fix - that's until the seal / rubber part that's leaking perishes further but its looking like a rather slow time bomb!


General OP Update
Just ordered the Timing Belt, Pulley and Water Pump kit from Shop4Parts today (God bless the FF discount!). Fiat never got back to me on Friday with an offer but I will contact them now in regards to them FITTING the parts to see how this compares to £80-£100 for the typical mechanic to do it. The car should have had it done around 70,000 i believe, 105,200 later and it's on its original belt. Think I'm going to aim to get it done end of this week.

 

[bluejohn125]

You may have seen this already but it seems like the timing belt kit job is very straightforward...

https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/437683-timing-belt-marks.html

 

[SB1500]

You may have seen this already but it seems like the timing belt kit job is very straightforward...

https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/437683-timing-belt-marks.html

It's the Water Pump seal that I'm concerned about 'screwing up' on :-/

I'd say I could figure out the timing belt , (automatic tensioner for the pulley?) but it's that pump that's making me choose the 'don't risk it' approach.

Unless there's very reassuring things to know about the water pump?


The Timing Belt Kit was genuine Fiat parts

 

[daveofkent]

It's the Water Pump seal that I'm concerned about 'screwing up' on :-/

I'd say I could figure out the timing belt , (automatic tensioner for the pulley?) but it's that pump that's making me choose the 'don't risk it' approach.

Unless there's very reassuring things to know about the water pump?


The Timing Belt Kit was genuine Fiat parts

water pump seal is the easiest bit, you squeeze the tube of liquid gasket and draw over the recess fiat have made for you in the w/pump. If you can put toothpaste on a brush then you can do it.

you unbolt the old one, clean the (engine side) face with an old credit card. do the above then re-bolt and wait 30 mins while youre having a cup of tea or doing something else that doesn't involve you putting the coolant back in.

Good luck