Technical Need help with engine issues

[pittsburgcat]

I had started a thread a week or so ago about electrifying my Jolly but thought i may be able to get some other help from this group. I was amazed at the number of genuine responses and i greatly appreciate everyone's input. I was hoping i may be able to get some advice on the trouble i am having with my 126 engine:

So....it was running fine, but then turned a corner while driving and suddenly it would not accelerate without trying to die. almost like it was running out of gas. very similar to the video below. it would idle, but would try to die when trying to accelerate.



I pulled the plugs and they were black so it seemed like too much gas (or not enough spark or air). I began by draining the gas tank, replacing the air and fuel filters and replaced the carburetor. next the coil. then the distributor cap and rotor. then the spark plugs. i clamped off the fuel line and let it run with the fuel in the bulb and it didn't change, so i eliminated any issue with the fuel pump. I finally called a mechanic that came out and basically went thru everything i had already done and left scratching his head. we played with carb settings, timing, checked and refreshed the points, checked the valve springs/valves, fuel flow etc...all the normal stuff. I have a condenser on order and if that doesn't work i'm going to change out the plug wires, although they appear to be relatively new. I love the jolly because everything is so cheap and it's fun to tinker with. that said, i bought this for my wife and she's losing patience If anyone has any other ideas, i'm all ears

a little more info: i pulled the original carb off and tore it apart. no issues with needle or trash around it, float functioned normally...in fact i didnt' find anything wrong with it but since a new one was so cheap i decided to just put a new one on. went with the weber. nothing changed in the way it ran. the choke is also functioning normally. again the car was running fine and during a drive we turned a corner and it just would not accelerate without trying to die. would idle fine. in fact i crippled it back basically at idle. i am convinced now after everything i have done it must be a spark issue. but the only thing left for me to replace is condenser and wires. after that i've pretty much replaced everything i can with new.

 

[bugsymike]

Do closely inspect the contact area of the contact points you replaced and ideally the old set if you still have them, as I mentioned before they are a good clue as to the condition of the condensor.
In simple terms the condensor reduces "arcing" at the points.
If condensor and rest of system is in good order the contact area should be a light matt grey

 

[heggae]

I vote the condenser. That baby lives in a hot environment. Also ai was missing the thermostat. So the hole added temp to the condenser. Good luck let us know

 

[pittsburgcat]

I haven't gotten the replacement condenser, but i went ahead and bought an electronic distributor (accuspark) that i plan to install after i try the condenser...just to see if that is it. either way, i still think it's spark but would love other opinions.

 

[bugsymike]

I haven't gotten the replacement condenser, but i went ahead and bought an electronic distributor (accuspark) that i plan to install after i try the condenser...just to see if that is it. either way, i still think it's spark but would love other opinions.

I would inspect the condition of the contact point working surfaces of the points.
If a light grey smooth surface area and correctly gapped, then good. They are working correctly.
If"blue" and pitted then condensor faulty and a very common issue.
If you have ever sparked an electrical wiring connection you will see a similar marking where the electricity has burnt the surface.
The main job of a condensor is to reduce sparking at the contact points by causing a rapid collapse of the electricity going through the points, by so doing it gives a good blue high voltage spark from the coil that will jump the spark plug gap.
Electronic ignition systems are not 100%, even genuine ones made by the car manufacturer fail, so no guarantee of reliability.
The difference is you can buy many sets of points and condensors for the cost of electronic ignition systems and most importantly any one of reasonable DIY competence can fix it at the side of the road, as opposed to a electronic system which will require a tow truck and weeks of the road whilst parts arrive!
A spare set of points and a condensor are so small you can carry them in the glove box.

 

[the hobbler]

I would inspect the condition of the contact point working surfaces of the points.
If a light grey smooth surface area and correctly gapped, then good. They are working correctly.
If"blue" and pitted then condensor faulty and a very common issue.
If you have ever sparked an electrical wiring connection you will see a similar marking where the electricity has burnt the surface.
The main job of a condensor is to reduce sparking at the contact points by causing a rapid collapse of the electricity going through the points, by so doing it gives a good blue high voltage spark from the coil that will jump the spark plug gap.
Electronic ignition systems are not 100%, even genuine ones made by the car manufacturer fail, so no guarantee of reliability.
The difference is you can buy many sets of points and condensors for the cost of electronic ignition systems and most importantly any one of reasonable DIY competence can fix it at the side of the road, as opposed to a electronic system which will require a tow truck and weeks of the road whilst parts arrive!
A spare set of points and a condensor are so small you can carry them in the glove box.

The main problem with the ignition set-upon the 500 (and 126) is the position of the distributor----right in the path of VERY hot air---the engine's "cooling" air. As I have mentioned before, ALL the 'electronic' ignition systems have a "wilt" point (spelt D.I.E.) of 100C, and the 'cooling' air coming from the engine can easily exceed this temperature. In fact the "123" distributors have this snippet of information on the 'bumph' label on the side of their distributor. If a 'electronic' ignitionis to be fitted, some sort of heat protection needs to be fitted to the distributor. I have fitted a small "air-dam" inside the thermostat-housing on my engine,which seems to have done the trick. Modern"pattern" condensers are, generally speaking, of very poor quality, so the answer for 'points' ignition is to fit a condenser that can be fitted remotely from the distributor---up by the coil. We are lucky in the UK in that we have (1) a company who make VERY high quality condensers that CAN be safely fitted to the distributor and, (b) 2 sources of 'competition' condensers that are designed to be fitted remotely away from the distributor. If you would like to contact me direct "Pittsburgcat" ( [email protected] ) I will send you all the details of the condenser suppliers and a copy of the article that i wrote regarding the 'air-dam'.
Lastly, if that video is of your engine---PLEASE remove thefiel-filter. A plastic fuel-filter in a hot engine bay, sitting over the alternator is NOT a wise thing to have. You already have 3 filters in the fuel system (tank-unit, top of fuel-pump and top of carb)--you do NOT need a 4th!

 

[bugsymike]

I fully agree with @the hobbler re the demise of quality pattern ignition parts. Also the after market fuel filters above hot electrics is a definite "no,no".
When points ignition systems were common, we used Lucas, Fomoco/Motorcraft, Marelli, Bosch, Unipart, etc. They were all of a reasonable standard. Unlike Intermotor when they first came out, but I am glad to say they have improved their build quality since the late 70s.
Some manufacturers fitted their condensors on the outside of the distributor such as Renault with Ducellier ignition etc. from new.
When on a breakdown in the 70s involving points and condensors several times I have cleaned the points and gapped them, then moved the radio suppressor from the switch side of the ignition coil to the CB/contact breaker side and used it as a "get you home" condensor for the ignition in place of the duff condensor.

 

[the hobbler]

I fully agree with @the hobbler re the demise of quality pattern ignition parts. Also the after market fuel filters above hot electrics is a definite "no,no".
When points ignition systems were common, we used Lucas, Fomoco/Motorcraft, Marelli, Bosch, Unipart, etc. They were all of a reasonable standard. Unlike Intermotor when they first came out, but I am glad to say they have improved their build quality since the late 70s.
Some manufacturers fitted their condensors on the outside of the distributor such as Renault with Ducellier ignition etc. from new.
When on a breakdown in the 70s involving points and condensors several times I have cleaned the points and gapped them, then moved the radio suppressor from the switch side of the ignition coil to the CB/contact breaker side and used it as a "get you home" condensor for the ignition in place of the duff condensor.

A thought "Pittsburgcat"--have you access to an air-line with a reasonable amount of pressure in it? The fact that your engine will idle, but then baulks when you try and open the throttle just MIGHT be a lack of fuel. Have you checked that the pick-up unit in the fuel-tank is clear? It would eleminate a possible cause if you were to take the fuel-line off the pump (on the fuel-tank side) and blow through it with the air-line (whilst the tank-unit is out of the tank) this would ensure that there is no blockage in the line which is restricting the supply of fuel to the fuel-pump. Whilst you are working at the fuel-pump, you can remove that plastic filter!

 

[pittsburgcat]

The main problem with the ignition set-upon the 500 (and 126) is the position of the distributor----right in the path of VERY hot air---the engine's "cooling" air. As I have mentioned before, ALL the 'electronic' ignition systems have a "wilt" point (spelt D.I.E.) of 100C, and the 'cooling' air coming from the engine can easily exceed this temperature. In fact the "123" distributors have this snippet of information on the 'bumph' label on the side of their distributor. If a 'electronic' ignitionis to be fitted, some sort of heat protection needs to be fitted to the distributor. I have fitted a small "air-dam" inside the thermostat-housing on my engine,which seems to have done the trick. Modern"pattern" condensers are, generally speaking, of very poor quality, so the answer for 'points' ignition is to fit a condenser that can be fitted remotely from the distributor---up by the coil. We are lucky in the UK in that we have (1) a company who make VERY high quality condensers that CAN be safely fitted to the distributor and, (b) 2 sources of 'competition' condensers that are designed to be fitted remotely away from the distributor. If you would like to contact me direct "Pittsburgcat" ( [email protected] ) I will send you all the details of the condenser suppliers and a copy of the article that i wrote regarding the 'air-dam'.
Lastly, if that video is of your engine---PLEASE remove thefiel-filter. A plastic fuel-filter in a hot engine bay, sitting over the alternator is NOT a wise thing to have. You already have 3 filters in the fuel system (tank-unit, top of fuel-pump and top of carb)--you do NOT need a 4th!

Thank you! I will email you. The video is not my vehicle but it shows the same problem i am having. I am really perplexed because myself and my mechanic checked the points and they appeared to be good. So i am dubious that a new condenser will help, although i'm excited to put it on and check when i get back from vacation. if it doesn't help, i may try the spark plug cables next. it happened suddenly so is not something that got progressively worse. just all of a sudden i couldn't accelerate without it trying to die. like it was running out of fuel...but it wasn't.

 

[pittsburgcat]

A thought "Pittsburgcat"--have you access to an air-line with a reasonable amount of pressure in it? The fact that your engine will idle, but then baulks when you try and open the throttle just MIGHT be a lack of fuel. Have you checked that the pick-up unit in the fuel-tank is clear? It would eleminate a possible cause if you were to take the fuel-line off the pump (on the fuel-tank side) and blow through it with the air-line (whilst the tank-unit is out of the tank) this would ensure that there is no blockage in the line which is restricting the supply of fuel to the fuel-pump. Whilst you are working at the fuel-pump, you can remove that plastic filter!

the new plugs i put in are already black. it has an electronic fuel pump you can use for start ups so i pulled the fuel line off at the carb and turned on that pump...it had a nice steady flow. then i clamped off the fuel line altogether and let the car run off the fuel in the carb and it still had the same issue.

 

[StMarks]

the new plugs i put in are already black. it has an electronic fuel pump you can use for start ups so i pulled the fuel line off at the carb and turned on that pump...it had a nice steady flow. then i clamped off the fuel line altogether and let the car run off the fuel in the carb and it still had the same issue.

I think many of the above suggestions are most likely, but you are asking for ideas to consider. (NOT being patronising, just trying to be helpful & come at it from a less "Fiat 500 experianced" perspective)....:
From your symptoms of sooted plugs & an inability to rev freely, how about an exhaust impediment.?
Obviously you'd probably have spotted a blocked tailpipe,,,, Nontheless wouldn't the symptoms fit quite well ???

 

[the hobbler]

the new plugs i put in are already black. it has an electronic fuel pump you can use for start ups so i pulled the fuel line off at the carb and turned on that pump...it had a nice steady flow. then i clamped off the fuel line altogether and let the car run off the fuel in the carb and it still had the same issue.

That is interesting--new plugs black already. Plugs that black would indicate that the engine is running too RICH. I am always totally baffled as to why people fit electric fuel-pumps (by the way, have an inertia switch-off valve in the system)----if you had accident with a standard 'mechanical' fuel-pump, the petrol would stop flowing as soon as the engine stopped, whether by physically switching off the ignition, or the engine stalling itself. With an electric pump, it will keep running even if the engine isn't, until the ignition is deliberatley turned off. Abarth relied on the 'mechanical' fuel-pump continuously, even on the 695SS versions of the engine, so why do people fit electric fuel-pumps?----it is just something else that can go wrong. Check your electric fuel-pump delivery pressure---it only needs to be about 2-1/2 psi---anymore than that and you will over power the needle-valve in the float-chamber, and the engine will run rich, especially if the carb has not got a 'fuel-return' line back to the tank, or at least just ahead of the pump.

 

[pittsburgcat]

Back from vaca and working on the car again. It's now not wanting to fire. I've noticed that after cranking for a bit, the starter struggles briefly and i can feel resistance in my hand pulling on the starter lever. Every 3-4 seconds it happens, slogs down just a bit then back to cranking. I am not sure what this is? Anyone know what i'm talking about and can help?

 

[the hobbler]

Back from vaca and working on the car again. It's now not wanting to fire. I've noticed that after cranking for a bit, the starter struggles briefly and i can feel resistance in my hand pulling on the starter lever. Every 3-4 seconds it happens, slogs down just a bit then back to cranking. I am not sure what this is? Anyone know what i'm talking about and can help?

Check the ignition timing---if you have points, very easy to check with a small 12 volt test-tamp.It should be 10 degrees BTDC 'static'. Unfortunately, if you have 'electronic' ignition you need the engine running to check the timing with a 'strobe' light---again, 10 degrees BTDC when the engine is idling. Something that might help you if you have 'electronic' ignition-----remove the 'King-lead' from the coil, remove the distributor cap, get somebody to give the engine a short crank-over, whilst you watch the distributor and see which way round the distributor turns. Loosen the distributor clamp and turn the distributor SLIGHTLY in the same direction----this will RETARD the ignition---retighten the distributor clamp. What you are describing sounds like that the ignition is too far advanced, and with a 'low-charge' battery, the scenario that you are describing will happen. Put everything back together, don't forget to refit the 'King-lead' and have another attempt at starting the engine

 

[pittsburgcat]

Thank you! I don't have electronic ignition. I have been messing with the timing. I started by pulling the valve covers off and finding top, then adjusting. I didn't use a light (i need to get one) but could certainly tell by adjusting while the engine was running. i appreciate your help on this....thank you!

 

[the hobbler]

Thank you! I don't have electronic ignition. I have been messing with the timing. I started by pulling the valve covers off and finding top, then adjusting. I didn't use a light (i need to get one) but could certainly tell by adjusting while the engine was running. i appreciate your help on this....thank you!

As you have (I am assuming) a 500 engine (type 110) in your Jolly, the timing marks are very easy to find---much easier than taking the rocker-cover off and 'hoping' that you have TDC. With the rocker-cover off, check that both valves for No.1 cylinder are closed---No.1 cylinder is the cylinder at the rear of the car. On the oil-filter cover you will see one small raised line---to be assured that you are at TDC, this line has to be aligned with the similar mark on the timing-chain cover. If there are 2 marks on the timing-chain cover, the first one is your 10 deg BTDC when turning the engine CLOCKWISE, and the 2nd mark will be TDC. If there is only 1 mark on the timing-chain cover, that will be TDC, and you need to make a mark (tippex will suffice) on the timing-chain cover 13mm to the left of that mark---this will become your 10 deg BTDC mark. The timing mark on the oil-filter cover needs to be aligned with the FIRST mark, or the mark that you have made 13mm before the TDC mark. Disconnect the 'King-lead' off the coil (so that the engine won't start!) and ascertain which direction the distributor is turning. AWAY from the direction of turning is RETARDING the ignition point---TOWARDS the direction of rotation is ADVANCING the ignition point. With the timing marks lined up to give you 10 deg BTDC, turn the ignition on. Connect the 12 volt test-lamp up to the DISTRIBUTOR side of the coil, and to a good earth point (somewhere on the engine) From what you have described, there is a fair chance that the test-lamp will light up when you turn the ignition on---this will show that the ignition IS too far advanced. Loosen the securing nut for the distributor and gently turn the distributor AWAY from the distributor's direction of rotation until the test-lamp goes out, then slowly turn the distributor back AGAINST the direction of rotation until the test-lamp comes back on again---your "static" ignition timing is now at 10 deg BTDC. Tighten the distributor securing nut up, and with the ignition still on, and the test-lamp still connected, turn the engine over until the lamp goes out, and continue turning the engine until the light comes back on again. With a bit of luck, the timing mark on the oil-filter cover will now, again, be aligned with the 10 deg BTDC mark on the timing-chain cover. Turn the ignition off, refit the "King lead" into the coil, remove the test lamp and refit the rocker-cover. The easiest way to turn the engine over is with a socket (or ring-spanner) on the big central nut of the dynamo whilst pushing down on the fan-belt (to make it grip better). On an alternator the nut on the end is 19mm, it might be the same on the dynamo. Hope this is of help to you.

 

[124BC1]

Just to add a little to what 'the hobbler' has said above:-

I checked an old Autodata Manual and it shows that the distributor rotor arm turns clockwise, so turning the distributor body clockwise will retard the ignition timing and turning it anti (counter) clockwise will advance the timing.

 

[124BC1]

I've been trying to think of something that might have caused your car to run badly by simply turning a corner... the only thought I've had is that maybe the engine rocked a bit more than normal (those engines do tend to move around a lot), or....

On older Fiats I've encountered problems with the low-tension wire from the coil to the distributor, presumably caused by vibration and movement - I'm not talking a complete break, just breakage of most of the wire strands - this checks out just fine with a voltmeter or test lamp but won't allow sufficient current to flow to ground (in order to rapidly collapse the magnetic field in the coil primary winding) resulting in very poor sparking. Might be worth checking out the terminals at both ends of this coil to distributor low tension (voltage) wire while your waiting on a new condenser, or fit a separate jumper wire.

New Spark Plugs turning black quickly - usually a sign of a rich fuel/air mixture, excessive running on choke, too-high a float level, float valve not sealing properly, fuel pressure too high. But it's worth double-checking that they are the correct heat range for your engine (i.e not too 'cold')?

Spark plug leads don't give much trouble, unless someone has pulled the lead rather than the rubber boot when disconnecting them - their suitability for continued use can usually be determined using an ohm-meter.

Condensers, nowadays seem to give much more trouble that 'back-in-the-day'. Sometimes a condenser will fail when it gets hot (too hot?) but may work ok again for a while after it has cooled. Afaik, some modern multimeters can be used to do a basic check on a condenser.

In the olden days, a vehicle with a problem such as yours would be hooked up to the 'shop Electronic Engine Analyser where any fault in the Ignition system could be quickly identified (by a competent person).

There used to be inexpensive spark indicators available that connected between the spark plug lead and the spark plug that give a visual indication of spark strength and consistency.

Your engine idles but won't rev up? When you try to accelerate an engine, there is an increased demand on the ignition system, i.e plug firing voltage increases - if ignition system output is insufficient, engine will struggle to speed up. (an old style engine analyser would show this happening on the display).

If TLDR - summary, check the terminals on the low tension lead between the coil and distributor at both ends.

P.S. If you do decide to fit an electronic ignition conversion, make sure you use the correct ignition coil for your chosen system.

 

[pittsburgcat]

I really appreciate this information. The thing i keep going back to is that it was running perfectly fine, we turned a corner and it wouldn't accelerate without trying to die. it was an immediate issue...it didn't degrade over time. i will replace the wire as you mentioned and report back. i can't tell you how much i appreciate your thoughts!!! thank you!

 

[pittsburgcat]

Update: i retarded the timing a little and it fired right up for me...no push back on the starter that i had been feeling. i just had the timing a little too advanced. I still haven't timed it properly but at least i got it to fire right up and idle although it still had the same issue of trying to die on acceleration. as i have shared i have literally replaced every part i could with new. the last item on my list was the condensor, which showed up a few days ago. i just replaced it and the car runs like before. i am simply beside myself. i don't see any signs on the points of a bad condensor but that is 100% what the problem was. i started today by messing with that timing and got it to where it would start and idle, just not accelerate. i replaced that condensor, fired it up and accelerated with no problem...just like new. i can't believe it. i want to go celebrate. 2 months of ****ing with this thing only to finally figure out it was a $5 part. LMAO