Technical Multipla 1.9jtd Gearbox Oil Leak!!

[IsThisGoodbyeMrT]

Dear All,

I am sorry to bother everyone again but we have ANOTHER problem now!! Got the repairs done in ?April (£600 charged not the £317 quoted!!), even got Multi thru' the MOT (quoted £350 but I found a wonderful garage who did the work for a quarter of that!), we've had 13 days of carefree motoring (just local trips, actually) - started hearing 'clacking' noise now and again, a rumble from underneath the front, this seemed to go away so I thought maybe something had been caught underneath and I must not think the worst! Now the worst has happened (well, nearly the worst anyway!) - oil started leaking today - it's leaking from the gearbox where two pieces of metal join, under the front, there are two bolts in that area also. I thought perhaps a bolt had loosened but no, they feel tight. Took to a wonderful tyre fitters who very kindly put Multi on a ramp and had a look. I phoned wonderful garage (in neighbouring county) for idea of cost to drop gearbox, look, replace (obviously if minor works required, to do those before replacing, if major works I would have to debate ... over a strong cup of tea!!), I just can't afford this repair! I don't know what on earth I am going to do now! I need the car to get my younger son to school (elder son being home-schooled for timebeing) Could anyone possibly give me an idiot's guide to topping-up gearbox oil (transmission oil?) and also has anyone tried the Transmission Stop Leak fluid as this could really help me for a while until I figure out how on earth to get over this latest 'challenge' - I am REALLY fed up. I honestly thought there would be nothing else - I don't even do much mileage - where we've moved to must be cursed!!

I'd be so grateful if anyone could give me some pointers, please - thank you so much, in advance,

IsThisGoodbyeMrT? :bang:

 

[widemouthfrog]

First things first. Is it engine oil or gearbox oil that's leaking?

Gearbox oil has a distinctive (and fairly unpleasant) smell. If you know where the dipstick is (it's a yellow ring-pull at the top of the engine, immediately behind the big plastic cover with 'Fiat' moulded into it), pull that out and smell the oil on the bottom of it. Then stick your finger in the stuff that's leaking out underneath. Do they smell the same?

 

[IsThisGoodbyeMrT]

First things first. Is it engine oil or gearbox oil that's leaking?

Gearbox oil has a distinctive (and fairly unpleasant) smell. If you know where the dipstick is (it's a yellow ring-pull at the top of the engine, immediately behind the big plastic cover with 'Fiat' moulded into it), pull that out and smell the oil on the bottom of it. Then stick your finger in the stuff that's leaking out underneath. Do they smell the same?

Dear Widemouthfrog - You seem to always come to everyone's rescue! Thank you! Well, 'tis gearbox oil - I can see where it's coming from, it's thin and it's black, dripping from the joint between two pieces of metal - I think one side is sump, the other is gearbox. The very kind gentleman at ATS close to my son's school put Multi on a ramp and had a look underneath also. He kept smelling the oil, then confirmed it was from gearbox. It could be just a seal, but I'm worried now as I've heard a grumbly-rattle from underneath at the front on intermittent occasions the past few days, there's also been the odd clack sound - this afternoon, on way back to here, there was an awful crunchy sound as I changed gear (think changing from 3rd to 4th) - bit of a shock! Engine sounds fine and, if I don't change gear we seem to go along OK, though there's been clacks when car's turned round. Oil was dripping when I parked up - steady drip like the blasted bathroom tap!! I don't know how to fix that either - have to learn - we're on water meter!!

I've found ad.s for leak sealant so thought I'd try that as a temporary measure but I have to get my son to school tomorrow and there's no garage locally who will help and there's none near my son's school either. Well and truly stuck! I and my son have tried to see where the bolts are to fill, empty, etc., but cannot see anything and have no facility to jack car up! I am a hopeless case! Need a reliable car, thought spending all that money on this one would give me just that - but then this! Wear and tear I suppose, such a shame no one noticed anything amiss when it was up on one of the ramps at one of the garages it's been visiting of late!!

I am so sorry for replying so late - I'm trying to catch-up with some of the other 'challenges' too!

Thank you so much for your reply - you are so kind,

IsThisGoodbyeMrT?

 

[IsThisGoodbyeMrT]

Dear Widemouthfrog,

I've been 'Googling' and found some posts on gearbox oil issues - don't think I'll have a hope of doing this myself, so hope I can find a trustworthy garage not too far away. I wonder if the 'clacking' sound, as intermittent, is something broken off or loose metal pieces (as per a posting I saw) inside the gearbox which are now able to make a noise as they're not so lubricated in oil 'cos it's dripped out!! Goodness' sake! - if I want a car I'm going to have to have lessons in taking care of it!!

I've seen the oil suggested -2Ltrs of Castrol Manual SMX-S 75W-85 Synthetic Transmission Fluid in case I can do the job myself. At the moment I'm trying to find a mobile mechanic who may be able to come out to repair MrT early in morning. I'll have to put some sealant in - at least then I'll have time to prepare myself for the cost of taking the gearbox out, replacing the necessary and re-fitting. Learning all the time ...

Thank you so much for your earlier message - you are, as always, very informative and very kind,

IsThisGoodbyeMrT? is now getting some sleep in preparation for the 'challenges' of tomorrow!! Nite Nite

 

[widemouthfrog]

Can you post a picture of the leak?

Unless there's been some severe damage to the gearbox casings (i.e. from hitting something), the usual places to get a leak are where the three drive shafts emerge - namely the input shaft (from the engine, via the clutch), and the two output shafts, where drive goes from the gearbox to the front wheels (one on each side of the differential housing, which is part of the gearbox casing). The oil seals around these shafts wear with age/mileage, resulting in a leak.

When do you hear the clack-clacking? Going around corners, under acceleration?

 

[IsThisGoodbyeMrT]

Dear Widemouthfrog,

Thank you so much for your message - you are so kind - and so informative - and I think you're hitting the nail on the head! This seems to be becoming another saga - events so far (now realizing all are connected!) :

intermittent grumbly-rumbly noise from under middle foot-well sort of area a few days ago

intermittent clackety sounds (not knocking from CV joint - I know that one) at slow speed coming from under middle foot-well sort of area started not long after

a few times a grating noise - from same area - when changing slow speed/low gear

a couple of times the clackety sound from middle foot-well area when making U-turn (at top of school road)

Bought gear oil and stop leak for gearbox this morning but couldn't get car looked at 'til this afternoon - had to hang around all that time 'cos didn't dare try to drive back to flat leaving my son at school in case I caused damage to gearbox and had problems meeting my son after school!! Lovely apprentice mechanic put stop leak and some gear oil in through filler hole - but didn't need much so obviously not gearbox oil leak!! At least it's topped up and has new additive!! Seems it is engine oil after all - oil level, according to dipstick, has dropped to normal level (thank goodness!) after my over-fill (I was going to ask garage if they could drain some off 'cos I was over-enthusiastic in my pouring, now I don't need to, 'cos it's dripping out the bottom!!) Mechanic saw oil filter - asked me if it's ever been off the car - it's coming off tomorrow, engine oil that's remaining is also coming out and new of both installed, however, mechanic has told me 15W40 oil should be put in 'cos that thicker and will maybe slow down leak (I have quite a lot of 10w and 5w Castrol as I stocked up at half price!) - he believes a seal has worn/been damaged and that is causing leakage, however, wonderful gentleman at AutoSpares Shop has cracked it, I think - when coil spring repair carried out apparently drive shaft has to come out or is unconnected for that period? When refitted/reconnected it must be fully pushed into place? I've read this afternoon that bolts are involved and these bolts need to be re-fitted with Locktite (Thread Lock?) and then bolts tightened fully otherwise they can work loose ... I think possibly no Locktite was used (works carried out by apprentice at repairing garage and checked by qualified) and bolts have worked loose. Hopefully garage will check driveshaft for me tomorrow but he doesn't think it's anything to do with the driveshaft! I am so fed up!! SO glad it's not the gearbox, but SO fed up that, each time a repair is carried out there is something else going wrong!! It IS possible that, because I had only passenger side coil spring fitted, and not the pair, maybe one driveshaft is sitting higher than the other and there's been damage or the bolts have worked loose - am I right in thinking this? I really hope I haven't caused any damage. I'm aiming to have driver's side coil spring fitted very soon, but didn't have pair fitted at the time.

I would have had the car serviced when I bought it - then I'd know it had been done - but took it to a garage the day after I'd bought it and was told it needed new radiator! £300.00 for that!! I'd asked them to check the car over but they obviously didn't because the oil level was on 2 - I filled it. Then it needed two new rear tyres, then new discs and pads and another tyre - £288.00! then the MOT - another £340.00 (I think I was fleeced over that!), THEN, this year, the splayed rear wheels - another £600.00 by the time they'd finished adding parts they didn't discuss with me first!! At least we now have a car that's more 2011, 2012, 2013 than it is 2001!!! There really needs to be a law about private sales though - this car had had no TLC, I don't think, since the chap took it on in 2005, but we weren't and aren't in a position to be able to put everything right and be fleeced into the bargain - it has certainly not been a bargain!

As things stand at the moment, the oil is thin, black and dripping (like a leaky tap) from the middle bottom of the car where the gearbox joins the 'other bit' (sump?) - I've not had a chance to look for a diagram yet but ... the inner driveshaft fits into this area? I think the driveshafts aren't meeting/connecting as they should and this is causing the noises.

Does engine oil lubricate these parts as well but is finding its way out because of the misconnection? Have I caused this problem because of having only one coil spring fitted at a time I wonder. I really hope I'm not causing more damage. I really hope this can be resolved! I am so fed up with having problem after problem!! Not just the car but, the problems I'm having with the council because the schools completed a)the wrong form when I de-registered my sons for EHE and b)the primary school has entered incorrect information and written awful comments about me - I asked for copies of their forms! - I'm having to battle the schools, the council - and I'm still having to battle with the NHS here because they left me with injuries which caused further injuries and I'm now permanently injured and can't get any help from anywhere because the NHS' answer is 'Go away' therefore we have no access to any healthcare here - not GP nor hospital, nor a local dentist! To have the car running and be able to get away from here for days out gives us such relief.

Do you think it is misaligned driveshafts/loose driveshaft bolts? I'll try to get a photo to send.

Thank you so much for your very, very kind replies - really help so much - thank you.

IsThisGoodbyeMrT?

 

[IsThisGoodbyeMrT]

Can you post a picture of the leak?

Unless there's been some severe damage to the gearbox casings (i.e. from hitting something), the usual places to get a leak are where the three drive shafts emerge - namely the input shaft (from the engine, via the clutch), and the two output shafts, where drive goes from the gearbox to the front wheels (one on each side of the differential housing, which is part of the gearbox casing). The oil seals around these shafts wear with age/mileage, resulting in a leak.

When do you hear the clack-clacking? Going around corners, under acceleration?

Dear Widemouthfrog,

I've tried taking some photos - some of which haven't come out very well but the patches of oil on the ground under the car may give an idea of location. The garage wiped the area clean and, although there's been further leakage since, it's not showing on pics!

Will try to send - don't know how to do this - just have to grab my techspert son!!


1:

The leak is closest to exhaust, other patch is from yesterday.

2:

The leak is closest to the centre of the car, other patch is from yesterday.

3:

Close-up on the side of the gearbox.

4:

Oil patch.

5:

Gearbox.

6:

Gearbox.

7:

Gearbox close-up.

8:

Gearbox close-up.


Thanks ever so much for your offer of help - I'm sorry to be such a continual nuisance!!
-IsThisGoodbyeMrT

 

[widemouthfrog]

Conflicting messages then. ATS man says it's a gearbox leak. The second opinion you've been given suggests that it's engine oil. Where the oil's emerging (from the join of the clutch bell housing on the right and the engine sump on the left, when viewed from the front of the car), it could be either, as a leak from either the crankshaft rear oil seal or the gearbox input shaft seal will emerge from that point.

A new crankshaft rear oil seal is around £30; a new gearbox input shaft seal is £7-10. I think a new gearbox input shaft bearing is around £35. The part(s) cost is however insignificant compared to the labour required to get at them. To change either of the seals, the gearbox needs to be removed. For the crankshaft seal, the clutch and dual mass flywheel also need to come off, but once the gearbox is out that's relatively easy.

The noises you've been hearing and the oil leak could be unconnected, but it's more likely that they are. If as you say the engine seems to be running sweetly, I'd be more inclined to think that the problem is in the gearbox. A failed gearbox input bearing is not an unknown occurrence on diesel Multiplas, and when it goes you get lots of rumbling/groaning noises, difficulty selecting gears and an oil leak (because the oil seal can't cope with an input shaft that is now rotating out of it's correct orbit). However, don't take me to task if that's not the case.

 

[IsThisGoodbyeMrT]

Dear Widemouthfrog,

Thank you so much for your reply - very informative and very helpful - thank you. If only the gearbox didn't have to be removed! I don't have any problem with gear changing though and the noises have been very sporadic - my son tried to record them on his mobile so that I could play them to the garage, but of course Multi was quiet almost all the way back here! It's definitely engine oil - the level on dipstick had dropped - I will check again in morning, but gearbox (oil) almost full so didn't need the bottles I bought. On a posting I read the driveshaft bolts come loose if not refitted with Locktite and I do wonder if that's what's happening so have asked garage if they'd please check driveshaft tomorrow - I really hope it turns out to be something easy - I'm just about at end of tether.

I must leave you in peace now, and I must get back to scanning work to send to council who are causing much stress also.

Thank you so much, again.

IsThisGoodbyeMrT?

 

[widemouthfrog]

Loose driveshaft(s) - or more accurately the output shafts should be called halfshafts because one half goes to one wheel and the other half to the other wheel - would cause a leak of gearbox oil, not engine oil.

Driveshaft seals and shafts can be replaced without removing the gearbox and are a relatively straightforward job. The seals themselves cost about £15/pair. But leaking output driveshafts wouldn't show in the position of your leak. Also, a failed seal won't give rise to a noise; the seal usually fails as a result of ageing/wear or (more likely) because the bearing that the seal sits next to is failing, allowing the shaft itself to move excessively.

 

[IsThisGoodbyeMrT]

Loose driveshaft(s) - or more accurately the output shafts should be called halfshafts because one half goes to one wheel and the other half to the other wheel - would cause a leak of gearbox oil, not engine oil.

Driveshaft seals and shafts can be replaced without removing the gearbox and are a relatively straightforward job. The seals themselves cost about £15/pair. But leaking output driveshafts wouldn't show in the position of your leak. Also, a failed seal won't give rise to a noise; the seal usually fails as a result of ageing/wear or (more likely) because the bearing that the seal sits next to is failing, allowing the shaft itself to move excessively.

Dear Widemouthfrog,

Thank you so much for replying again - I didn't expect to hear from you again yesterday 'cos it was so late so very, very much appreciated. I'm going to print off your messages as I have to rush to get my son to school. It looks as though we'll be without a car again - and another fortune to repair! This is so unfair to my sons - we needed a reliable, useful car but this one is forever needing attention. I can't believe something else so expensive to repair has broken so soon after all the other repairs - I really thought I was doing the right thing and that we would have a year's worry-free motoring. Perhaps the burning smell, when we were driving, a week or so ago was actually us - we thought at the time it may have been - I wonder if that was something else connected to the current situation then - perhaps that was a seal burning? What on earth would suddenly cause that though? We travel hardly any miles - approx. 80 miles a week and there didn't seem to be anything wrong other that the coil spring as at mid June! Could it be that the coil spring repair meant something was moved out of its comfort zone and that caused the destruction of a seal (could that have been the burning smell?) and then further disruption of the related shafts? We can't afford another car, but we can't afford this one either now. We will have to sell things to raise the money to get the repairs carried out! This is ridiculous, but we cannot be without a car and are not, now, in a position to be able to move because I've not been able to work due to the injuries, etc. but was refused any assistance because the GPs/NHS here refused to complete forms correctly/professionally! What an absolute mess!

Well, I just hope the car holds out until the end of the summer term - or I'll be in more trouble. I won't be able to use the car if a seal has disintegrated though. I wish this run of bad luck would stop - it's from every direction and makes life so difficult and so blasted miserable.

Thank you so much, again, for your kindness and for sharing your knowledge - which is vast!

With Kindest Regards and Much Gratitude!

IsThisGoodbyeMrT?

 

[IsThisGoodbyeMrT]

Dear Widemouthfrog,

We're out of garage, did not have oil change 'cos drainplug stuck fast and may have been damaged during removal. Changed oil filter, however, letting out some oil thru' that and topping up with stop leak engine additive. We had whirring in low gear this morn. Garage owner drove car and said definitely problem in gearbox. This car has so many new parts and we can't be without a car - don't know what to do. Hoping to last 'til end of summer term but boys won't have much fun this summer unless we can resolve something. At least now I've heard I could have returned car at outset - re new rad 2nd day of ownership! - thought we were stuck so that was the start of downward spiral. Bit late to learn that lesson, but better late than never. Am putting on Forum for sale - so many new parts/tyres - try to recoup something toward another car, if possible.

Thank you so much for your help - so very, very kind and at least we've been able to explore some new areas and have learnt much about car problems since purchase!

Kindest of Regards,
IsThisGoodbyeMrT?

 

[IsThisGoodbyeMrT]

Dear Everyone - I'm sorry to ask for more help, but ...

this is the current grating/whirring sound coming from the front (middle) underneath of my Multi - would anyone be able to recognize what this may be, please?

http://youtu.be/j9VKTzLJbNA

Many, many thanks in advance!!

IsThisGoodbyeMrT?

 

[Alpitlum]

Try and make the video a bit longer if possible. For the first two seconds it sounded like canned laughter.
A longer video will give us more of a chance of possibly identifying the noise.

 

[IsThisGoodbyeMrT]

Try and make the video a bit longer if possible. For the first two seconds it sounded like canned laughter.
A longer video will give us more of a chance of possibly identifying the noise.

Dear Alpitlum,

Thank you so much for your reply - my son's going to add some more to that - tried to record the noise every time it happened - seems to be just in pulling away, in first gear. Just been out as younger son had school disco, had additive put in this morning and I think it may be helping - not so much oil leaking.

Thank you so much for your offer of help - I just don't understand why, if it's a wear and tear item, there was no forewarning of what was to come - ie, surely there would have been a worsening noise over time until something finally snapped? The clatter sounds as though something's come loose and the grating/whirring as though something's slipping. I'll ask my son to put some more recordings on.

Thank you so much, again!!

IsThisGoodbyeMrT?

 

[IsThisGoodbyeMrT]

Dear Alpitlum,

Thank you so much for your reply - my son's going to add some more to that - tried to record the noise every time it happened - seems to be just in pulling away, in first gear. Just been out as younger son had school disco, had additive put in this morning and I think it may be helping - not so much oil leaking.

Thank you so much for your offer of help - I just don't understand why, if it's a wear and tear item, there was no forewarning of what was to come - ie, surely there would have been a worsening noise over time until something finally snapped? The clatter sounds as though something's come loose and the grating/whirring as though something's slipping. I'll ask my son to put some more recordings on.

Thank you so much, again!!

IsThisGoodbyeMrT?

Dear Everyone,

My son has now (he's my techspert - I am useless as yet, but learning all the time!) sorted these recordings for me.

I'm not sure anything can be diagnosed from these. A local garage has said problem is with gearbox yet I have no problem selecting any gears, drive is still smooth, the oil leaking seems to be engine oil and not gearbox oil (I wonder if, originally, there was gearbox oil around the area of the leak from a previous topping up and this was disguising the smell - unlikely?)

The engine oil needs changing but drain plug stuck fast, garage said could not remove without causing damage and needing inner seal (?) If I'd had engine oil change I suppose this would then have proven which oil was leaking - I should have gone with oil change.

At present there is stop leak additive in both gearbox oil and engine oil - I will check on leakage throughout day (excess engine oil was released by removing oil filter - oil filter replaced with new).

The sound, to me, seems to be something slipping and whirring as I pull away in first gear - especially going up slight sloping road, my son who sits on n/s says sound is more of a grating. He recorded sounds on small camcorder via open window.

There is a clatter (metalic knocking together) as I pull away but this happens only once/twice together with the grating, then no strange noises when driving.

Any and all help is very much appreciated - learning all the time.

Many, many thanks,

IsThisGoodbyeMrT?

 

[Alpitlum]

There sure is a combination of noises there.
On the first part of the video there is a clicking which sounds like an inner driveshaft joint but then it doesn't do it again.
As for the whirring type noise I have no idea sorry.
I would be very tempted to get shut as spares or repair.
I know it can be difficult raising funds to swap motors but this thing is eating your money.
Someone else may come along with a better diagnosis of the noise but given that it's looking likely that the box is going to have to come off the bill is growing constantly.
Overfilling the engine with oil and then running it can blow oil seals (among other problems) so your sudden leak could be quite likely caused by over-filling the engine.

 

[IsThisGoodbyeMrT]

There sure is a combination of noises there.
On the first part of the video there is a clicking which sounds like an inner driveshaft joint but then it doesn't do it again.
As for the whirring type noise I have no idea sorry.
I would be very tempted to get shut as spares or repair.
I know it can be difficult raising funds to swap motors but this thing is eating your money.
Someone else may come along with a better diagnosis of the noise but given that it's looking likely that the box is going to have to come off the bill is growing constantly.
Overfilling the engine with oil and then running it can blow oil seals (among other problems) so your sudden leak could be quite likely caused by over-filling the engine.

Dear Alpitlum,

Thank you so much for your very kind email - I think the noises could be something to do with inner driveshaft as a very kind gentleman in the AutoSpares shop explained about re-fitting properly/boot possibly not covering properly and it seems too coincidental that this latest problem should suddenly occur just after a repair which involved that item.

I over-filled the oil inadvertently and have been meaning to ask a garage if they would kindly drain some - of course, stupid me I should have just got the oil and filter change done and overfilling would have been resolved at same time, it's just that we've had another 'battering' from other sources and I've been so distressed over that that poor Multi got put on the back-burner. The other problem is, of course, we have no local garage that will help us and I have to take the car to the neighbouring county for repair.

Obviously I'm learning by research (and flipping huge mistakes!!) as I go along, but I don't think the gearbox has bitten the dust - surely there would be difficulties changing gear or some sort of gradually worsening indications if wear and tear issues? The only problem I've had with gear change is when we got stuck in the baking heat at Longleat for a long, long time in a queue by the monkeys and from thereon and I couldn't release from 1st - once we were moving normally again gears freed.

The gentleman in the AutoSpares shop explained about the inner end of the driveshaft having a boot. I also saw a posting about reconnecting/refitting bolts on the driveshaft with Loctite - I wonder if the bolts loosened, shaft dislodged, boot burnt (burning smell previously), clatter is movement of driveshaft trying to engage, whirring/grating is sound of driveshaft working without now having a boot to muffle? Is that possible would you think, or do I have just an over-active imagination? The thought of giving-up on this Multi after all I've paid out already ...

Thank you so much, again, for your very kind message,

IsThisGoodbyeMrT?

 

[IsThisGoodbyeMrT]

Found short video on YouTube of how to fit driveshaft (half-shaft) - not Multi nor n/s but 'did the job' of instruction. I'm now off to look under MrT - find out where the driveshaft enters. Have to hold out hope it's something more easily repaired than gearbox - that is, if I can understand what I'm looking at!!

 

[IsThisGoodbyeMrT]

Loose driveshaft(s) - or more accurately the output shafts should be called halfshafts because one half goes to one wheel and the other half to the other wheel - would cause a leak of gearbox oil, not engine oil.

Driveshaft seals and shafts can be replaced without removing the gearbox and are a relatively straightforward job. The seals themselves cost about £15/pair. But leaking output driveshafts wouldn't show in the position of your leak. Also, a failed seal won't give rise to a noise; the seal usually fails as a result of ageing/wear or (more likely) because the bearing that the seal sits next to is failing, allowing the shaft itself to move excessively.

Dear Widemouthfrog,

Just to say, I see what you mean about position of shafts to leak (didn't jack car up but can see under if lay on ground and reaching in could feel inner joint boot - all feels secure). Oil is not dripping at mo - mind you, not been out all day - but think it was running from rear of that housing along the seam and dripping from there.

Back to YouTube looking for gearbox removal video - not that I aim to remove it myself, but I like to understand and know what I'm talking about!

Can't understand why something would suddenly break to that extent when I've done hardly any miles recently, no rough driving, not been down huge potholes - leak/clatter/whir has happened suddenly.

Thank you again for all your help,

IsThisGoodbyeMrT