Technical Motorhome Auto Roller 1.9 td 1999 diesel to long to start..

[LynPod]

Hello Everybody.. New Here...

I have acquired a 1999 Ci Auto Roller.. with 1.9 TD Diesel engine with no running problems with it... except for a long drag up of fuel before it starts... There was a bad smell of diesel and a puddle under it next morning after it had been delivered... I had a look at the obvious (leak off pipes) and sure enough even though they looked new... the "Bung" on No. 4 was leaking ... so replaced it with a new one and thought that is the cause (no tank build up pressure to help fuel to get to pump)...
I had this problem with my Boxer 3 with the injector leak off rubber tiny washers on top being perished... once replaced tank had pressure back (Whoosh) sound when removing cap and starts straight away.. before that was done and engine warm... I had to turn engine over and over many times till started... because of no fuel in line...

So I thought that this Mk 11 1999 model had the same problem and hopefully the same fix to cure it... But No... Even though there is now No Leaking it still has to turn over a dozen times before it will start.. soon as it gets fuel it starts right away...

To Summarise what I would like to know is...
1)... When working properly does the tank build pressure as my Boxer 3.. (has fuel pump in tank and here it release air when cap undone)..
2)... Dose the system have an electric pump... that might need replacing...
3).. if not can I fit a separate electric one to prime it before starting...

Bit long winded this Post.. Engine has had a recent Injector Pump ... and engine has done 35000 miles... and always been serviced from new...

many thanks for any suggestions for the cure for this... and I am sure many will have gone through this problem so will be able to give me so good advice on here...

Lyn...

 

[bugsymike]

Well, learned something new, I had never heard of leaking "leak off" pipes or blanks affecting starting or running, merely the obvious smell and mess, thinking about it I have seen many early VW Golf diesels etc. leaking via those return pipes and no mention of a problem starting them.
If you hadn't said the new bung sorted the leak I would have suggested checking the base of the fuel filter for wetness as on older diesels not uncommon to leak and overnight allow air to replace the fuel, though what would happen with those pre common rail diesels is they would start and run a short distance with the fuel in the injector pump and then die. On the early 1868cc ? non turbo engines they didn't have a low pressure pump in the fuel tank but the turbos did. I found out this with a old Doblo van that several garages and a diagnostic specialist gave up on it so I bought it cheap. I traced the fault to an air leak on the fuel hose connector allowing air into the system (if it had the low pressure pump the fuel would have leaked out and been visible) after getting the vehicle running by gravity feeding fuel from a can on the wing I then traced back to the plastic pipe fitting. The Lucas Epic injector pump on those relied on "sucking" the fuel from the tank and not a low pressure pump priming the injector pump
Generally if quiet when turning ignition to on you should hear a noise from the fuel pump in the tank and sometimes the fuel return bubbling under the bonnet, although that is more noticable after a fuel filter change.. On a daughters Grande Punto 1.3 Multijet the pump in the tank didn't work, due to the relay in the fuse box not getting a signal from the ECU , but in that case it killed the starter feed also.
I am assuming temperature doesn't affect the problem, so just as hard to start on a warm day and no white smoke/unburnt diesel smell from the exhaust, just long cranking and finally starts and runs smoothly with no misfire/lumpiness?
Seems strange it should have needed a new injector pump at 35K miles, any reason given?
Does the engine crank over fast enough, I have had more old diesels needing a new starter or battery etc. than injector pumps.

 

[LynPod]

Well, learned something new, I had never heard of leaking "leak off" pipes or blanks affecting starting or running, merely the obvious smell and mess, thinking about it I have seen many early VW Golf diesels etc. leaking via those return pipes and no mention of a problem starting them.
If you hadn't said the new bung sorted the leak I would have suggested checking the base of the fuel filter for wetness as on older diesels not uncommon to leak and overnight allow air to replace the fuel, though what would happen with those pre common rail diesels is they would start and run a short distance with the fuel in the injector pump and then die. On the early 1868cc ? non turbo engines they didn't have a low pressure pump in the fuel tank but the turbos did. I found out this with a old Doblo van that several garages and a diagnostic specialist gave up on it so I bought it cheap. I traced the fault to an air leak on the fuel hose connector allowing air into the system (if it had the low pressure pump the fuel would have leaked out and been visible) after getting the vehicle running by gravity feeding fuel from a can on the wing I then traced back to the plastic pipe fitting. The Lucas Epic injector pump on those relied on "sucking" the fuel from the tank and not a low pressure pump priming the injector pump
Generally if quiet when turning ignition to on you should hear a noise from the fuel pump in the tank and sometimes the fuel return bubbling under the bonnet, although that is more noticable after a fuel filter change.. On a daughters Grande Punto 1.3 Multijet the pump in the tank didn't work, due to the relay in the fuse box not getting a signal from the ECU , but in that case it killed the starter feed also.
I am assuming temperature doesn't affect the problem, so just as hard to start on a warm day and no white smoke/unburnt diesel smell from the exhaust, just long cranking and finally starts and runs smoothly with no misfire/lumpiness?
Seems strange it should have needed a new injector pump at 35K miles, any reason given?
Does the engine crank over fast enough, I have had more old diesels needing a new starter or battery etc. than injector pumps.

Hello "Bugsy"..
To your answer...

1).. I can't hear any pump noise "Whining etc"..
2).. It spins fine and has had a new starter...
3).. It has had a new Battery heavy duty... No sign of it packing in and going flat...
4).. It has had all new belts...
5).. The new Pump was a last ditched effort and a good "Sting" from a garage to cure it.. as the Previous owner being a Woman...

However I will check the pipe back to the tank should the be any weak clamps or perishing...
But! going back to the day after it was delivered.. the Diesel Puddle under the right hand side of engine (opp 4th injector) was more than I would thought of a 4th injector "Bung" with a trickle from it... so would assume from that there is some pressure in leak offs to do that over a couple of hours or more..

The engine runs as new from start ...

Lyn...

 

[bugsymike]

Hello "Bugsy"..
To your answer...

1).. I can't hear any pump noise "Whining etc"..
2).. It spins fine and has had a new starter...
3).. It has had a new Battery heavy duty... No sign of it packing in and going flat...
4).. It has had all new belts...
5).. The new Pump was a last ditched effort and a good "Sting" from a garage to cure it.. as the Previous owner being a Woman...

However I will check the pipe back to the tank should the be any weak clamps or perishing...
But! going back to the day after it was delivered.. the Diesel Puddle under the right hand side of engine (opp 4th injector) was more than I would thought of a 4th injector "Bung" with a trickle from it... so would assume from that there is some pressure in leak offs to do that over a couple of hours or more..

The engine runs as new from start ...

Lyn...

Ouch on fitting a injector pump as a "maybe" cure, a bit like another Forum member described as a "parts scatter gun approach" you sometimes see on opening a bonnet!
If your fuel inlet pipe at the filter coming from the tank is easily disconnected you could try putting the end into a suitable container and have someone just switching the ignition light on for a few seconds without starting, make sure they are awake and switch it off quickly as could get a bit messy if low pressure pump is working in tank.
Re leaking pipes, they will only show if there is a working pump in tank pushing fuel out as a visible leak and not if it is sucking in air. On the Doblo nothing external showed, it was only my suspicions confirmed by gravity feeding from a can on the wing of the vehicle directly to the high pressure pump. Incidentally at the time Fiat wanted £200 for the combined flow and return pipe as it was one piece front to rear!
Just a thought, being a motorhome rather than a basic work van, any easy access plastic cap or similar in the floor above a fuel tank to get to the fuel tank unit/pump if built over may involve dropping the fuel tank, which can be fun if full!!!
Just another thought, if you know the engine Series Number etc. it may be one used in other makes of vehicle and widen your search for a solution.

 

[LynPod]

Ouch on fitting a injector pump as a "maybe" cure, a bit like another Forum member described as a "parts scatter gun approach" you sometimes see on opening a bonnet!
If your fuel inlet pipe at the filter coming from the tank is easily disconnected you could try putting the end into a suitable container and have someone just switching the ignition light on for a few seconds without starting, make sure they are awake and switch it off quickly as could get a bit messy if low pressure pump is working in tank.
Re leaking pipes, they will only show if there is a working pump in tank pushing fuel out as a visible leak and not if it is sucking in air. On the Doblo nothing external showed, it was only my suspicions confirmed by gravity feeding from a can on the wing of the vehicle directly to the high pressure pump. Incidentally at the time Fiat wanted £200 for the combined flow and return pipe as it was one piece front to rear!
Just a thought, being a motorhome rather than a basic work van, any easy access plastic cap or similar in the floor above a fuel tank to get to the fuel tank unit/pump if built over may involve dropping the fuel tank, which can be fun if full!!!
Just another thought, if you know the engine Series Number etc. it may be one used in other makes of vehicle and widen your search for a solution.

Well.. I think there is a removable panel under floor mat in centre between seats... where fuel gauge sender is... Been out in it today had a 50 mile run and re-parked it at another bay side of 1st one... so as to see if any leaks on floor and did start with less turns... but smells of diesel ... maybe just what is left on engine before "Bung" replaced... and when hot... I know that this engine will start straight away the second the fuel is there... I don't like the long drag to do it... Wrecks starter and battery... Can't do anything now until M/H is over our pit.. but I have another on it at present having air suspension fit...
I will keep you informed of any Progress..

Lyn...

 

[jackwhoo]

Hi,
Is this moho fitted with the Peugeot 1.9 turbo diesel ?
Does it have a squeeze fuel primer bulb under the bonnet?
Cheers
Jack

 

[jackwhoo]

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[jackwhoo]

Looks like no in tank pump

 

[LynPod]

Hi,
Is this moho fitted with the Peugeot 1.9 turbo diesel ?
Does it have a squeeze fuel primer bulb under the bonnet?
Cheers

 

[LynPod]

Hello Jack...

I will check after Lunch and take some pictures of what is under bonnet...

Thanks

Lyn....

 

[LynPod]

Looks like no in tank pump

Hello Jack..

I agree

Lyn

 

[LynPod]

Hello Everyone... Helping...

I have taken some pics to show you what I see under bonnet... the "Blue Ring" is my temp repair to 4th injector Bung.. which a new one still leaked..
and so dumped it and connected a piece of new 1mm pipe 4" long onto fitting and then "Spring Clamp" with stainless screw screwed in it tight...
has done the job until I get a 1mm Brass "T" piece so as to cut into 3rd injector to 4th which will do the same job and be stronger...

Lyn...

 

[jackwhoo]

That is the Peugeot xud9 engine- excellent engine.

Not usually fitted with a lift pump , the injector pump has to pull the fuel all the way from the tank . The smallest pin holes or weak joint in the fuel line between the pump and tank makes for long cranking because the suction on the fuel line pulls air into the fuel. Any problems in the fuel line allows the fuel to drain back to the tank.
Make sure the feed and return pipes are connected the correct way round at the tank!
I couldn't see the diesel filter in photos or primer bulb(If it has one). Weak primer bulb joints, filter joints can allow air in fuel.

Try and find fuel filter and primer bulb and post photos

 

[jackwhoo]

Check each glow plug gets power when glow plug dash light is on.
Check each glow plug not open circuit(disconnect glow plug wire and use tester to measure resistance between glow terminal and engine block )

Xud9 is an older type of diesel engine so will take longer to start than a common rail diesel engine but a dozen cranks does sound excessive.

I had a Citroen zx with the xud9 turbo engine - terrific engine

 

[bugsymike]

If nothing obvious found, you may be able to prove it by doing what I did and run a gravity feed direct to the high pressure pump, purely as a test.
By the way I take it from mention of the pit etc. you are a business, I don't think that is a problem, but it helps to know the level of "mansplaining" to give compared with the average person on the street whose ability levels may differ.

 

[LynPod]

That is the Peugeot xud9 engine- excellent engine.

Not usually fitted with a lift pump , the injector pump has to pull the fuel all the way from the tank . The smallest pin holes or weak joint in the fuel line between the pump and tank makes for long cranking because the suction on the fuel line pulls air into the fuel. Any problems in the fuel line allows the fuel to drain back to the tank.
Make sure the feed and return pipes are connected the correct way round at the tank!
I couldn't see the diesel filter in photos or primer bulb(If it has one). Weak primer bulb joints, filter joints can allow air in fuel.

Try and find fuel filter and primer bulb and post photos

Jack.. Where will it be ...

Lyn

 

[LynPod]

Check each glow plug gets power when glow plug dash light is on.
Check each glow plug not open circuit(disconnect glow plug wire and use tester to measure resistance between glow terminal and engine block )

Xud9 is an older type of diesel engine so will take longer to start than a common rail diesel engine but a dozen cranks does sound excessive.

I had a Citroen zx with the xud9 turbo engine - terrific engine

Jack had new Glo Plugs last year according to bill

Lyn..

 

[The Panda Nut]

I agree with the comments above re excessive cranking. I had quite a few of these engines over the years and the only thing leading to this was the preheat system. I would get this checked regardless of having new plugs last year. Faulty control units can burn out glow plugs in quick fashion so I would get the elctrical control unit checked and then the glow plugs again as I suspect this is most likely where the problem lies. I have seen injector problmes but this never caused sluggish starting , just smoke. I would check carefully that all four glow plugs look the same age in case it wasnt a whole set installed.

 

[LynPod]

I agree with the comments above re excessive cranking. I had quite a few of these engines over the years and the only thing leading to this was the preheat system. I would get this checked regardless of having new plugs last year. Faulty control units can burn out glow plugs in quick fashion so I would get the elctrical control unit checked and then the glow plugs again as I suspect this is most likely where the problem lies. I have seen injector problmes but this never caused sluggish starting , just smoke. I would check carefully that all four glow plugs look the same age in case it wasnt a whole set installed.

Panda... Good advice I will do that

Lyn

 

[LynPod]

Hello Everyone..

I have now taken pics of the diesel fuel pump and clearly shows the type it is... It has primer on top as a button... give it a 5 good pushes this morning... temp here today as I am on the sea front... is 3 degrees... and sunny... and give it a start and sure enough within 5 turns just started...

But fuel line was not primed I would say filter was 3/4 full of diesel.... before I primed it...

Lyn...