Technical mk2 punto eobd compatibility

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Technical mk2 punto eobd compatibility

smokeme

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I think some of you will know this :p

what protocol do the mk2 puntos use? are they all eobd compatible?

i have a mk2 punto 1.9d that i'm getting an interface for, so far i only tested a borrowed dec superscan II to test a fault and it worked.

i'm thinking of getting an ELM327 but not sure it works..

any help appreciated(y)
 
Hi mate,

The 1.9 D and 1.9 JTD are NOT Obd2 compliant. They use KWP200 protocal. HOWEVER download UniDiag and get a modified OBD11 cable and u will be able to read fault codes as well as diagnostics on the ABS and Air-Bag systems.

Hope that helps,
Alan

EDIT: for diesels its 2004 onwards, so only the punto 1.3 multijet diesel is truely OBD11 Compliant.
 
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i know the 1.2 8v and 1.9JTD are obd2, kwp2000 protocol is obd2 :p

kwp2000 is actually ISO 14230 (EOBD) and is available on most mk2 puntos, what no one can tell me is what mk2 puntos it's not available on..

it's a known fact mk2 puntos use can bus ( dash is can bus only as is the air bag system)

it's also a known fact all mk2 puntos have a EOBD connector on the fuse box..

mine is the 1.9D, like all 1.9D it has a crappy lucas EPIC aberration for an injection pump with a lucas DCU3F ecu..

the EOBD connector pinout i found on mine:

1-has pin (unknown function)
2-not connected
3-has pin (unknown function
4-chassis ground
5-signal ground
6-CAN high (J-2284)
7-K line
8-not connected
9-has pin (unknown function)
10-not connected
11-not connected
12-has pin (unknown function)
13-has pin (unknown function)
14-CAN low (J-2284)
15-not connected (usually L line on other models)
16-battery power

Fiat has no ideia what i'm talking about, probably has the worst service in the world:mad: Lucas just says Fiat will know..
 
ok just got an email from fiat, all mk2 puntos are fully EOBD compliant, they are all EURO 3 or EURO 4 depending on date of production..
 
ok just got an email from fiat, all mk2 puntos are fully EOBD compliant, they are all EURO 3 or EURO 4 depending on date of production..

That's not true, 99 and 00 Mk2's are not OBDII.

They are EOBD but that isn't a standard protocol, there are several used. OBDII was the first proper standard.
 
That's not true, 99 and 00 Mk2's are not OBDII.

They are EOBD but that isn't a standard protocol, there are several used. OBDII was the first proper standard.


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]OBD systems have been developed and enhanced, in line with United States government requirements, into the current OBD II standard. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]The OBD II Federal requirements apply to cars sold in the United States from 1996.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]EOBD is the European equivalent of the American OBD II standard, which applies to petrol cars sold in Europe from 2001 (and diesel cars 3 years later).[/SIZE][/FONT]

Signal protocols

There are five signalling protocols currently in use with the OBD-II interface. Any given vehicle will likely only implement one of the protocols. Often it is possible to make an educated guess about the protocol in use based on which pins are present on the J1962 connector:
  • SAE J1850 PWM (pulse-width modulation - 41.6 kbaud, standard of the Ford Motor Company)
    • pin 2: Bus+
    • pin 10: Bus–
    • High voltage is +5 V
    • Message length is restricted to 12 bytes, including CRC
    • Employs a multi-master arbitration scheme called 'Carrier Sense Multiple Access with Non-Destructive Arbitration' (CSMA/NDA)
  • SAE J1850 VPW (variable pulse width - 10.4/41.6 kbaud, standard of General Motors)
    • pin 2: Bus+
    • Bus idles low
    • High voltage is +7 V
    • Decision point is +3.5 V
    • Message length is restricted to 12 bytes, including CRC
    • Employs CSMA/NDA
  • ISO 9141-2. This protocol has a data rate of 10.4 kbaud, and is similar to RS-232. ISO 9141-2 is primarily used in Chrysler, European, and Asian vehicles.
    • pin 7: K-line
    • pin 15: L-line (optional)
    • UART signaling (though not RS-232 voltage levels)
    • K-line idles high
    • High voltage is Vbatt
    • Message length is restricted to 12 bytes, including CRC
  • ISO 14230 KWP2000 (Keyword Protocol 2000)
    • pin 7: K-line
    • pin 15: L-line (optional)
    • Physical layer identical to ISO 9141-2
    • Data rate 1.2 to 10.4 kbaud
    • Message may contain up to 255 bytes in the data field
  • ISO 15764 CAN (250 kbit/s or 500 kbit/s). The CAN protocol is a popular standard outside of the US automotive industry and is making significant in-roads into the OBD-II market share. By 2008, all vehicles sold in the US will be required to implement CAN, thus eliminating the ambiguity of the existing five signalling protocols.
    • pin 6: CAN High
    • pin 14: CAN Low
Note that pins 4 (battery ground) and 16 (battery positive) are present in all configurations. Also, ISO 9141 and ISO 14230 use the same pinout, thus the connector shape does not distinguish between the two.

mk2 puntos are EOBD compliant in line with European Directive 98/69/EC to monitor and reduce emissions and use ISO 14230 KWP2000 as a protocol.. according to Fiat it's actually in the owners manual under EOBD, and it is on mine:p

there won't be OBDII in Europe as it's not an European standard..
 
ObdII or equivalent then if you want to be pedantic.

Fact is I've hooked up lots of 99 and 00 cars and they haven't been picked up.

Yet all 2001 cars do.

EOBD/OBDII will have a yellow management light, others have a red one (normally).

Some pre 2001's work with EOBD/OBDII but only the later ones.
 
ok just got an email from fiat, all mk2 puntos are fully EOBD compliant, they are all EURO 3 or EURO 4 depending on date of production..


Sorry agree with richie on this one. The Punto MK2 JTD and D is NOT fully OBD11 compliant, nor are some of the early Mk2 Petrols. As stated, if the EOBD light is RED it genrally means that its not FULLY OBD11 compliant. If its Yellow then it generally is. (by FULLY I mean yes u may be able to connect to the EOBD system, but when it comes to reading the DTC's or live data/ freeze frame data, it wont work)

Yes, they use the standard OBD11 16pin connector, AND some of them use the KWP2000 protocol but they not FULLY OBD11 compatable, meaning that plugging in a standard OBD11 fault code reader such as a U581 will not work. When using FiatExaminer, this does not matter as it incorperates all the EOBD systems used in fiats, including the older 3 pin versions.

It only became legislation in 2001 (for petrols) and as such, cars made (not necisarily registered) in or around the change over period are hit and miss.

The OP is refering to a 1.9 D (didnt have to be OBD11 untill 2004), so in my opinion, if he wants to be GUARENTEED to connect correctly to his ECU to carrout out diagnosis, then my recommendation would be unidiag with a modified OBD11 cable (cheapest way). That WILL work. If he wants to try an ELM327 with standard OBD11 software such as ScanTool then IMO it wont work. Same applies for the JTD.

EOBD compliant and OBD11 compliant arnt quite the same thing.

Also it may be worth having a search of the stilo/ bravo/ and MPV/Commercial fiat sections for 1.9D and JTD OBD11 compatability as it comes up frequently.

Just my opinion and from my own experience,
Alan
 
I was working with the guys on the Stilo section and they helped me a lot on this one... I finally got it figured (with a big help from SanderQV!)

Punto 2001 onward with petrol
Uses EOBD (ISO 9141-2)
Has yellow MIL indicator

Punto 1.9D/JTD
Uses KWP2000 variation (ME7.5.1)
Has red MIL indicator

Punto < 2001 1.2 16V petrol
Uses KWP2000 variation (similar to '99 Bravo/Brava 1.2)
Has red MIL indicator

Punto < 2001 1.2 8V petrol
Uses KWP2000 variation (dunno which one, but I'd guess IAW47F)
Has red MIL indicator

Punto < 2001 1.8 HGT
Uses KWP2000 variation (hitachi ECU, but Motronic based protocol)
Has red MIL indicator


There's plenty more information in the Unidiag group about these protocols, and you can work them out with an ELM though you need propper software...

PS: smokeme, estás a procurar no fórum errado! :D
 
Good info, thanks. I think the groupings of cars is right but maybe the description of protocol is out. ISO9141 was around a decade before ISO14230 came along. As is written above, ISO14230 is KWP2000, which is a comms protocol that uses the ISO9141 physical interface, in the same way that TCP/IP is a comms protocol that uses ethernet as a physical interface. So anything that is KWP2000 is also using ISO9141 physical interface.

EOBD is then a message protocol on the top, which can be over CAN or K-line.

So it seems more likely that the pre-2001 EOBD cars are actually ISO9141, a standard which does not AIUI fix the messages so there are differences across manufacturers and EOBD software is not guaranteed to work.

And post 2001 cars will be KWP2000. I think it's called that because it was agreed in 2000, so no earlier cars can be fully complient.
 
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Thanks for the confirmations(y)

just one clarification

Punto 1.9D/JTD
Uses KWP2000 variation (ME7.5.1)
Has red MIL indicator

while the JTD uses generally a Bosch ecu that can be reprogrammed through the OBD socket, the punto 1.9D uses a lucas DCU3F ecu that CAN'T be reprogrammed through the OBD socket..


maybe one of the mods should clean up this thread and make it a sticky:p
 

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PS: smokeme, estás a procurar no fórum errado! :D

I frequent so many forums and usually know where i get the answer i'm looking for from the topics discussed, Fiat Forum is one of the first Fiat forums i joined and the one where users are not afraid to try new things..

I'm getting tired of Portuguese forums, most focus on styling and don't care about performance, they consider engine tuning when you slap on a filter/exhaust and get a remap.. My passion is and probably always will be performance, my goal is to extract every drop of performance from a car/engine combination that my wallet allows until i get bored and move on to another..

sorry for the OT:eek:
 
Good info, thanks. I think the groupings of cars is right but maybe the description of protocol is out. ISO9141 was around a decade before ISO14230 came along. As is written above, ISO14230 is KWP2000, which is a comms protocol that uses the ISO9141 physical interface, in the same way that TCP/IP is a comms protocol that uses ethernet as a physical interface. So anything that is KWP2000 is also using ISO9141 physical interface.

EOBD is then a message protocol on the top, which can be over CAN or K-line.

So it seems more likely that the pre-2001 EOBD cars are actually ISO9141, a standard which does not AIUI fix the messages so there are differences across manufacturers and EOBD software is not guaranteed to work.



And post 2001 cars will be KWP2000. I think it's called that because it was agreed in 2000, so no earlier cars can be fully complient.

Uh... No it's actually the other way around... Post 2001 vehicles use EOBD over ISO 9141-2 (K + L line, Low baud init), while prior vehicles use certain unique specifications of the Keyword Protocol 2000, which are implemented over FIAT 9141 (K line only, high baud init)...

smokeme said:
I frequent so many forums and usually know where i get the answer i'm looking for from the topics discussed, Fiat Forum is one of the first Fiat forums i joined and the one where users are not afraid to try new things..

I'm getting tired of Portuguese forums, most focus on styling and don't care about performance, they consider engine tuning when you slap on a filter/exhaust and get a remap.. My passion is and probably always will be performance, my goal is to extract every drop of performance from a car/engine combination that my wallet allows until i get bored and move on to another..

You should check my project on PuntoPT.net, there's plenty of work there around the OBD interface, and some performance prototypes!
 
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OK. Well KWP2000 was only released in 1999, so no car before that can be KWP2000 complient and of course there is the usual time lag to production. If the earlier cars were KWP2000 compliant then they would communicate with OBD diagnostics tools, yet they don't. There was no legal requirement for Fiat to meet any standard so they were free to make up their own, and probably did to tie people to their service chain would do, just like all the other OEMs, which is easier than agreeing a common standard anyway.

Post 2001 (petrol) Fiat was required to meet this law:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31998L0069:EN:HTML
"6.5.3.1. One of the following standards with the restrictions as described must be used as the on-board to off-board communications link:
ISO 9141-2 'Road Vehicles - Diagnostic Systems - CARB Requirements for the Interchange of Digital Information`;
ISO 11519-4 'Road Vehicles - Low Speed Serial Data Communication - Part 4: Class B Data Communication Interface (SAE J1850)`. Emission-related messages must use the cyclic redundancy check and the three-byte header and not use inter-byte separation or checksums.
ISO DIS 14230 - Part 4 'Road Vehicles - Diagnostic Systems - Keyword Protocol 2000`."


It seems a bit odd that they should drop from KWP2000 back to ISO 9141-2, since KWP2000 is an allowed OBD standard. That the later cars use ISO 9141-2 also suggests to me that the earlier cars were not using KWP2000.


I accept your word that the later cars are 9141-2. I think our common ground for earlier cars is that what they were doing has aspects of KWP2000. It might be that what Fiat was doing lead to some aspects of the KWP2000 spec.
 
Well, both KWP2000 and ISO 9141-2 are but specifications of how communications should be handled. Actually, KWP2000 has certain language implementation restrictions, but I'll get to that later.


EOBD however, is a standard that specifies the use of ISO 9141-2 specifically with a certain comunication language and rules. While the later cars fully respect the EOBD standard, the earlier cars have absolutely no language standard, and therefore, they implement the KWP2000 protocol. Some things are common between all KWP2000 fiats: The initialization, and the base commands are all the same. Some others are not: Not all KWP based Fiats use the same sensors, on the same base addresses, neither do they use the same math formulas to decode the answers.

You should even know that, despite EOBD implementation on later Fiats, they should also comply to answering KWP2000 commands in the same manner as the older ones, depending on how comms were initialized. I haven't tested this, but I know of someone who had.

EOBD itself is not older than KWP2000, it actually started showing around 1999 as well. It only has a different set of rules, and you can't call either to be better or more evolved than the other!
 
Ok, i know that on the superscan II i can get everything requested incluiding changing the mileage (i've been told by costumer support it can actually do everything the examiner can).. on the ELM it connects as KWP2000 and i get the correct live sensor data and some error codes, i can't get all the error codes as reported on the superscan so there is some protocol diference.. these are induced error codes like disconnecting sensors so it should report on both the same..

...


You should check my project on PuntoPT.net, there's plenty of work there around the OBD interface, and some performance prototypes!

PuntoPT.net is a bit of a mess when it comes to searching for info, most is hear say and not facts, same goes on most Portuguese forums.. When i say something does not work i can actually back it up with a few blown engines to prove it, that's why i say that when someone blows a stock 8V FIRE bottom end they did something very wrong :p

I messed with the 8V FIRE engines so much to the point i knew all measurements by heart and could tell straight away how an engine would behave with a specific part combination or a turbo conversion.. The only project that has me stumped is the Thema, i seriously hate 20 year old italian electrics...

I learn by researching and only when satisfied i try to do the best i can, if it doesn't work i try another way until it does while keeping the knowlegde of what didn't work and why so others don't make the same mistakes if they try to follow.. I've been researching on the 1.9D for almost a year, i'm almost satisfied on a way to start but still need to be sure i'm going in the right direction..
 
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