Men at Work plagiarism case

[RichDoblo120]

The Aussie band Men at work have lost the case that they stole their tune from an old kids song.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8497433.stm

if you listen to it, it does sound very similar but not exactly the same and at a different tempo too.

If every song that sounded similar to another was taken to court we'd have hardly any music to listen to.

I'm always coming across songs that remind me of older songs.

Recently I noticed that Nirvana's "Been a son" sounds almost exactly like The Pink Fairies "Chambermaid" but I've never heard of this going to court.

Listen to the intros of these two songs and see what you think...

 

[Chas Uno]

Another classic case was Killing Joke's 1984 song hit "Eighties" and Nirvana's "Come as you are". Check out Kurt Cobain's guitar riff in the Nirvana song - it's virtually identical to Geordie Walker's Killing Joke riff! It was later revealed that Nirvana were massive Killing Joke fans so it was fairly obvious that Cobain must have been influenced by Killing Joke when writing "Come as you are". Take the Killing Joke "Eighties", slow it down a bit and you've virtually got a carbon copy of the main melody...

Killing Joke were going to sue Nirvana over this plagiarism, but then Cobain went and shot himself so they didn't. Later on Dave Grohl ended up playing all the drums on Killing Joke's 2003 album instead and even invited Jaz Coleman (Killing Joke's singer) as special guest on stage at some Foo Fighters gigs!


Check the two songs below to hear the similarities.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1oyfG6t2ew"]YouTube- Killing Joke - Eighties[/nomedia]

 

[RichDoblo120]

I've never noticed that one before. Definite rip off.

 

[The Beard]

So the flute part sounds similar. What about the bass line? No? Ooohkay then. What about the drum parts? No? The lyrics then?

Here's a question, what happens when a sample is used? Some songs feature sample of another throughout almost their entire length. Was it Will 2 Power who used a sample of "Ooo Baby I Love Your Way" for the whole song. Someone else used "Freebird" by Lynnyrd Skynnyrd as the basis for about 90% of another.

Do they pay a royalty? Ask permission? Or what?

Good spot on the Pink Fairies by the way Rich. I think I might have seen them at the Electric Circus in about '73 but I was probably too wasted to remember.

 

[Chas Uno]

Here's a question, what happens when a sample is used? Some songs feature sample of another throughout almost their entire length. Was it Will 2 Power who used a sample of "Ooo Baby I Love Your Way" for the whole song. Someone else used "Freebird" by Lynnyrd Skynnyrd as the basis for about 90% of another.

Do they pay a royalty? Ask permission? Or what?

Yes, I'm pretty sure they have to do both.

The song "Freak like me" by the Sugarbabes (I think) used samples of Gary Numan's "Are Friends Electric?" throughout their song. They would've had to ask for permission and pay a royalty fee for using the samples. There were a few songs around that era using samples of older songs to base a new song around in a trend called "bootlegging".

Another example was the The Verve's "Bittersweet Symphony" that used either a sample or a direct copy of the orchestral string riff from a Rolling Stones song. The Stones ended up suing The Verve for using this riff/ sample without permission.

So yes, samples used in other people's songs are still covered by copyright.

 

[M21MFS]

Yes, I'm pretty sure they have to do both.

The song "Freak like me" by the Sugarbabes (I think) used samples of Gary Numan's "Are Friends Electric?" throughout their song. They would've had to ask for permission and pay a royalty fee for using the samples. There were a few songs around that era using samples of older songs to base a new song around in a trend called "bootlegging".

Another example was the The Verve's "Bittersweet Symphony" that used either a sample or a direct copy of the orchestral string riff from a Rolling Stones song. The Stones ended up suing The Verve for using this riff/ sample without permission.

So yes, samples used in other people's songs are still covered by copyright.

I take it you've heard the 'sample' used by the Verve?

It's minimal to say the least. And even then, it was an orchestral sample of the song - not even the Stones version that it sounded like/sampled! They've never made any money off that song yet IIRC!

 

[Chas Uno]

I take it you've heard the 'sample' used by the Verve?

It's minimal to say the least. And even then, it was an orchestral sample of the song - not even the Stones version that it sounded like/sampled! They've never made any money off that song yet IIRC!

Being neither a Verve fan or much of a Stones fan, I haven't listened to either songs intently. Saying that, "Bittersweet Symphony" was played all over the place on its release so one couldn't miss it!

Regardless of how minimal the sampling was it was still a copyright issue. The press at the time (inc. NME) had a field day reporting on how the Verve were sued by the ugly corporate business empire that sits behind the facade of "The Rolling Stones". And yes, you're absolutely right in that the Verve didn't make a penny out of one of their biggest selling singles.

EDIT: What Rolling Stones song was it again that the Verve borrowed the riff from?

 

[sludgeguts]

That explains why Status Quo got quite wealthy. They released one song & every song after that used the same chords - so they had to pay themselves royalties

TBH, There's hundreds of songs hitting the charts that either rip bits from other songs or are just blatant copies.
I always put it down to lack of imagination

 

[kayl0rz]

the convo about samples and stuff reminded me of thos video i watched at uni a few years ago. its abit long but for any music fan is seriously interesting!
it talks about the worlds most important 6 second drum loop

 

[PandaMark]

What Rolling Stones song was it again that the Verve borrowed the riff from?

"Bittersweet Symphony"

This samples an obscure orchestral version of "The Last Time," and was recorded before they got permission from the Stones to use it, so the Verve had to sign away most of the royalties from this in order to release it.
The publishing rights went to Allen Klein, The Rolling Stones' former manager. He made far more money than anyone else from this song. Because this sampled the song from The Rolling Stones, Mick Jagger and Keith Richards get composer credits along with Richard Ashcroft. Upset that he lost the royalties, Ashcroft said this was "The best song Jagger and Richards have written in 20 years."

 

[The Beard]

the convo about samples and stuff reminded me of thos video i watched at uni a few years ago. its abit long but for any music fan is seriously interesting!
it talks about the worlds most important 6 second drum loop

YouTube- Video explains the world's most important 6-sec drum loop

That recording made me think. There's not much can do that nowadays. I think the 6 seconds may be significant, as I think there may be a maximum length of music that can be sampled without attracting a demand for royalties and that that length may be less than 10 seconds.

Pandamark's comment about getting premssion from Jagger and Richards reminded me of a documentary about Mick where he was walking past a pool at an hotel when he was asked how someone got permission to record a song written by another person. His reply was that you didn't have to get permission, you just went and did it; although he didn't mention the matter of royalties.

By the way, I got through 6 minutes of that recording about the drum loop.

 

[Chas Uno]

the convo about samples and stuff reminded me of thos video i watched at uni a few years ago. its abit long but for any music fan is seriously interesting!
it talks about the worlds most important 6 second drum loop

YouTube- Video explains the world's most important 6-sec drum loop

I disagree with the claims of that video that the "Amen break", as they refer to it, was unique and then sampled/ appropriated by many bands subsequently. The drum loop they talk about sounds like a commonly used jazz style rhythm, almost a shuffle type beat, that has most probably been used loads of times prior to 1969. It was also very similar to the 'Madchester' beat that many indie bands were using in the late 1980's/ early 1990's, which were normally played by live drummers rather than a drum machine/ sampler.

To imply that everyone copied/ sampled the Amen brothers original was a bit far fetched, and to suggest that they hold copyright of the 6 seconds of the drum pattern is a little daft. There a numerous drum beats/ loops that are commonly used such as the standard rock beat, the 4 on the floor dance beat, the bossanova, the rhumba, the marching beat and many more besides. Who holds the copyright to these? Did all those cheesy keyboards with built in rhythms steal the beats off someone else? No, these were established drum patterns that were used in many, many songs and as such were public domain.

If a direct sample from the original recording had been used then yes, the Amen brothers would hold the copyright. The similar sounding beats used later on in the video did NOT sound like they came from the original recording, and were more likely constructed using drum machines or more modern rhythm composing software. The beat patterns were similar, the sounds were slightly similar, but that other than that they did not sound like direct samples to me.

IMHO of course!

 

[M21MFS]

Being neither a Verve fan or much of a Stones fan, I haven't listened to either songs intently. Saying that, "Bittersweet Symphony" was played all over the place on its release so one couldn't miss it!

Regardless of how minimal the sampling was it was still a copyright issue. The press at the time (inc. NME) had a field day reporting on how the Verve were sued by the ugly corporate business empire that sits behind the facade of "The Rolling Stones". And yes, you're absolutely right in that the Verve didn't make a penny out of one of their biggest selling singles.

EDIT: What Rolling Stones song was it again that the Verve borrowed the riff from?

The Last Time - and even then, it was a BBC orchestral performance I believe!

Here you go