Technical Marea Weekend 105 JTD - Performance

[b1gduk]

I have just bought a 105 JTD ELX and it is very nice, fully stamped , easy started no diagnostic lamps no smoke. The thing is I have never driven one and expected that the performance should be a little better than it is.

I would really appreciate if someone could take a look at my discription and see if it sounds about right. I am not bothered if this is the way is should be as long as the car is running right.

Lower revs fairly lifeless , this is where I would have though it would have been much livelier. In higher gears 3-4-5 it accelerates ok to make overtaking ok but there is no pull to speak of really.

Its almost like driving a non turbo I guess.


In first and second its fairly flat. Is there a ECU turbo limiter in these gears as there is on a standard Coupe 20VT ? (dont get me wrong, I dont expect the car to perform like that did

Can anyone with the same model tell me how the car accelerates / when the turbo kicks in and how the car should behave in different gears.

Much appreciated guys.
Thanks.

 

[EI4GGB]

Hello,

you will probably find - if its not been changed or done before, that the MAF sensor is on its way out. This is located on the inlet pipe from the air filter towards the turbo. To check, you can temporarily disconnect the multi plug that goes to it and take her for a spin. If its much livelier than before, its a fair bet thats the problem. Dont leave it disconnected though. The MAF (mass air flow) sensor element gets dirty or contaminated over time and slows its response, hence the sluggishness. They can be cleaned with a little care, its worth a try, as a new one is around £100 i think. Have a look at the bravo guide for more info on this problem..

Owen.

 

[b1gduk]

Thanks for the reply. I read this in another thread so I did that test, it didnt seem to make any difference except it was a little less smooth at very low (takeoff) revs so I reconnected it (and broke the clip in the process).

I think that probably it is performing as it should, the 0-60 figures are not mega impressive , something like 10.8 so perhaps I have unrealistic expectations. I did a manual 0-60 count and that seemed about right. It is probably due to the fact that this is an estate that is being gragged about and it is only 105bhp.

Maybe I will hook up a boost gauge at some point. I have also seen lots of references to the EGR so might try that.

Where is the DV and EBV in these things :bang:

 

[b1gduk]

Re: Marea Weekend 105 JTD ELX - Performance

There definately seems to be a flat spot when smoothly accelerating , when the car hits 2500 rpm you can feel a pull back.

I cleaned the MAF as per instructions on BOO. Made no difference.

Nay more suggestions.

Where is normal for the temp gauge to site, mine sits just under half way, is this normal.

Sorry for all the newbie Fiat paranoia questions.

 

[fbarcode]

The temp needle in my marea (105 JTD) is sitting just below the middle mark as well.

Regarding performance, I cleaned the MAF sensor and also did not notice anything for about 200-300km, and then it got really better. But id did not happen all at once. At first, when I pushed the pedal to the floor, it seems to go from slow-fast acceleration in short bursts, and after few days, now it just accelerates as it should.
Before it took ages to accelerate from 100-120 km/h in 5th gear, and now it is much better.

Was your MAF sensor dirty? Do you have lots of black smoke coming from exhaust when you push the accelerator hard (especially as your rev count goes past 3000)?

 

[b1gduk]

Hi there .

Thanks for the reply. Actually I have never notived any smoke at all. I have driven 120 Miles since cleaning the MAF and doing the ECU reset but cannot say it is greatly improved. I have no lights no smoke.

I have read in a few placed that until the engine has warmed up the performance is retarded. I am wondering if one of the temp sensors is misleading the engine into thinking it is cold.

The Water Temp Sensor (or the temp sensor as indicated on the dash) appears to be fine, but is there another engine temp sensor that could be misreading. I know at around this mileage people were replacing these other sensors on the coop for similar reasons.

I have looked at the shop4parts and can see a temp sensor and also a water temp sensor but this one is labelled TD75 so perhaps for an earlier model.

I would take the car to Fiat for a diagnostics but as the injector light never comes on other than a few seconds on ignition there may be nothing recorded as wrong ?

What would be really cool and put me out of my misery would be to get a ride in someone elses Weekend 105 JTD, this way I will know if its right or not.

Anyone live in the Wakefield/Pontefract/Doncaster Area that could offer thier services

 

[fbarcode]

Well, as you said, maybe everything is OK with the engine, but you used to drive much faster car...
Regarding MAF sensor. If it is OK now you should notice performance decrase when you unplug it. Did you try that?

I think that the best way to do some comparison is for you to time your 80-120 km/h (or maybe 2000-3000 RMP) acceleration in 5th gear foot down all the way, and I can do the same, so we can compare results. Do you (or anyone else) has a better idea?

 

[b1gduk]

Hmmm,

Well, I thought that by unplugging the MAF you would get normal if not optimal performance because the ECU will rely on its own inbuilt figures. So normallish performance if not the smoothest. When I disconnect my MAF it makes no difference , so now I am confused. Which way is it.

Some other threads suggest that if your MAF is faulty, unplug it and the performance is much better

At the moment, shop4parts are selling new MAF for the 105 JTD for £99+VAT which is quite good, however I would be really if I got one and it made no difference.

Your speed test idea sounds like a good plan
I will post my results and the test when I do them, maybe later today.
What model are you driving out of interest ?

I have noticed that when foot to the floor accelerating , say in 3rd, as soon as the car hits 2600 revs it pulls back, almost as if something else is supposed to kick in but doesnt. If that is a clue for anyone.

Thanks again for the reply.

 

[fbarcode]

Hi,

MAF (in my experience)

1. When it was dirty, I disconnected it and acceleration was much better.
2. MAF cleaned, I disconnected it and performance decreased (but not much).

I also noticed that after MAF cleaning, engine became somewhat louder.

I have noticed that when foot to the floor accelerating , say in 3rd, as soon as the car hits 2600 revs it pulls back, almost as if something else is supposed to kick in but doesnt. If that is a clue for anyone.

Well my expirience with dirty MAF was: press acc pedal slightly and it does accelerates, push it somewhat more, acceleration does not change, only smoke from exhaust, push it even more, and it actually starts to decrease acceleration, release pedal a bit and again it accelerates better. In other words if you push it just a bit or all the way, it just stayed the same, seems like engine is choking with too much fuel.

It does this in all gears (realy starts in 3rd), but it is much more obvious in higher gears. And if I go past 3000 revs and release the acc pedal suddenly, it spits out a cloud of black smoke.

My Marea is late 2001 ELX weekend (110 Hp). My friend has a 1999 105HP weekend and we could not notice any performance difference (with my MAF cleaned, of course).

 

[b1gduk]

Thanks for the comments.

I have just done the 2000-3000 RPM in 5th Test.
Gained some speed then put the car in 5th and put my foot on the floor.
From about 1500 revs and I watched it crawl up to 2000RPM started the timer, stopped it again at 3000 RPM.

Results on a very slight downhill road = 23 seconds. (felt like 1 min 23).

I then tried to repeat the test with the MAF disconnected but could not get a decent run up, too busy but it didnt feel any different really, if anything the car did feel a little more lively lower down but that could be due to me giving it some stick a few minutes earlier. No night and day change really. No smoke either.

Still a slight hesitation when that magical 2600 RPM is hit.
Where is the turbo supposed to kick in ?

Please can you repeat these tests, perhaps also ask your friend to do the same :worship: and post the results.

I popped by the car spares shop also to buy a new fuel filter because the car has done 9K since the last change which was nearly 2 years ago , I changed the Air filter when I got the car because it was black. The oil and oil filter however have been changed far more recently/frequently.

Before I seriously consider splashing out on a new MAF I think I will go back to basics.

King Regards
Dwayne

 

[b1gduk]

Well Tonight I sacrificed the football and Desperate Housewives S2 Episode 1 so I could do some jobs on the car.

Firstly I drained the diesel filter with the cap at the bottom. Then I followed the BOO guide and Serviced/Cleaned the EGR and pipe. I could not believe how much gooey tary sticky stuff was clogging up the end of the pipe connecting to the top of the engine.

Results, well the car seems to drive ok, but then it did anyway , but I have one burning question.

Apart from comparing the 2K-3K 5th time test

What is the significance of 2600 RPM ?
Perhaps ECU retard performance for a reason ? ie faulty temp ???
Perhaps this is where the Turbo is meant to kick in ? but I dont know because I have never had this car before ??
Perhaps Its a Turbo / Wastegate issue ?

There are so many things

It can accelerate reasonable well and very smoothly but as soon as 2600RPM is hit in most gears, although the acceleration continues I can definately feel a pull back or slow down of acceleration. Most pronounced in 3rd I think.

So now I have cleaned the MAF and EGR, put new Air Filter on and bled the diesel filter and performed an ECU reset and cannot say there has been any significant increase in performance. hmmm:bang:

Help :idea:

 

[fbarcode]

Hi,

Just came to work and have some 2-3k test results. Well, I have some good news and some bad news.

The good news are that your car can definitely accelerate faster than you previously taught.:slayer:
The bad news are that something is definitely wrong with your car.

I did 2-3k test and it was less than 15sec (stupid cellphone went to screensaver when running the stopwatch so I had to press stop twice) on 'slight downhill'. I did not do a 'run start', i was going 2k in 5th and then pushed it to the floor.

Then I tried it again on a slightly inclined) part of the highway, and it reached 2800 in about 13 sec (could not go faster, due to the traffic ahead).

These times are not accurate, but this is not 'my car is faster then yours blah blah' test, so I think this is enough to determine that something is wrong

I will try to do more accurate measurements on my way home. I know exactly what you mean by (seems like 1min 23sec), as that was what I was going trough before. It just took AGES to accelerate in 5th gear.

Unfortunately I cannot help you with turbo related question, since I have no experience with them. Supposedly you should 'feel' the turbo kicking in on 2k RPM, but I can't say that I can actually feel it. It does pull much better, but no 'kick'.

Regarding 2600 pullback, I also had that, but it was accompanied by black smoke.

And finally, regarding EGR, you would feel it, as when mine was stuck it accelerated like snail (litteraly) and then on 2k mark, BANG and it flies. (That can be described as 'kick' ).

And I just noticed that the coolant I was missing for the past month or so is probably going right onto my floor. Driver side (left side) is soaking wet. AAAAAARGH, and I was thinking that my nightmares are over.:bang:

 

[b1gduk]

I really appreciate that.

I dont think your extra 5BHP would account for X2 performance.
I suspect a turbo related problem, although I can hear a whitle when I accelerate stood next to the car. Due to no smoke and smooth running and no oil consumption I dont think its serious Turbo issue ie Seals but its a complex and frustrating area because there are so many components that make up the pressure / release circuit which I dont understand well at the moment. I know the coop very well and would have identified the problem by now , but the JTD is different.

So the good news is that I can look forward to a faster car when i the problem fixed, the bad news, its probably going to cost me money and time to get to the bottom of this problem.

Might pop her down to the local garage to have her examined to see if there are any split pipes or hoses that have come loose, these things happen.

One further question , when you disconnect your MAF do you get an injector light on the DASH telling you there is a problem ?

I dont.

I was/am still tempted to buy a new MAF on the off chance it is that because there are on sale at £99+VAT until the end of the month. I could probably sell it on for the same if it doesn fix my problem once they go back up to full price. Worth a shot ???

Sorry to hear about your coolent troubles. Heater Matrix ? Perhaps I am beginning to understand why we pick em up so cheap.

ONLY KIDDING
Thanks again.

 

[fbarcode]

I dont think your extra 5BHP would account for X2 performance.

One further question , when you disconnect your MAF do you get an injector light on the DASH telling you there is a problem ?

No, no lights.

Sorry to hear about your coolent troubles. Heater Matrix ?

Well, my floor is wet, and it is most probably coolant (oily stuff), so my guess is heater matrix. (btw, why do you write it with capital letters, as of "The Dreaded Heater Matrix" )
The part is not so expensive here, but the labor price I am concerned with.

Does anyone know if dashboard has to go, or it can be reached from the engine bay? I am not going to do it myself, just to estimate the labor price.

If I drive with the temp switch on "Low", would coolant steel flow trough the heater matrix, or is there some kind of bypass. In other words, if I turn off the heating, will it stop leaking? I am realy concerned with (already) 2 months of wet floor in my car. (rust, etc.)

Perhaps I am beginning to understand why we pick em up so cheap.

Heh, do not make me cry. Here (Serbia) you just cannot get a decent (not involved in accidents and repaired, etc.) Bravo/Brava 1998-99 for under 4500 EUR (3 093 pounds).
And for Marea, it is even higher, especially if it is JTD (like mine). I paid mine 6500 EUR (4 468 pounds) last year. They are NOT cheap here. .
Not to mention that vast majority of Fiat's for sale here are imported company or taxi vehicles and they have more than 200 000km on the clock for 2-3 years. Dealers put the new steering wheel and pedals, rewind the clock to just under 100.000 km, and the car is "as good as new".
So I am a bit frustrated by the prices mentioned on this forum (1000 pounds for Marea, aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrghhhhhh).
I will stop whining now.

I am sorry for not being able to help more, but now I just do not know what is causing lack of power you are having. :bang: Maybe someone else could help?

 

[b1gduk]

No mate , you have been very helpful indeed, you have made me make that key determination that something is a miss. Also the fact that there is no warning light when you unplug the MAF is good to know.

The fact that when I unplug it or not it makes no diff could suggest a problem with it on the otherhand I had a look under the car last night after removing the undertray and what I saw may also prove costly as the Turbo and intercooler pipe were covered in oil. Although the oil looked quite old and it was thick, so perhaps it was due to 85K of natural leakage or its bust I dont know.

I think I am going to have to bite the bullet here and take her to a Fiat Garage with the right diagnosis tools and see if they can find the problem.
I think we have pretty much overered everything and there isnt much more I am personally willing to do to find the problem because I am not a mechanic and do want this car OK ultimately

The Dreaded Heater Matrix, tell me about it. I had a Sierra Heap some years back now, in the middle of Manchester the thing just burst and I was left with a lap full of steam and hot water. You have got to admire the positioning of these things, why not place them in the roof hanging just over your head because one day for sure, it will go

So whilst typing this I have just looked up the replacement time for the heater matrix in your model of Marea and it looks like you are in luck.
1.2 hours is quoted so look at 2 hours labour + Parts, if they know what they are doing. (From a reliable source)

Good luck, it could even be a split pipe or connection to the heater matrix :idea:

 

[fbarcode]

Maybe it is best for you to take it to a good garage to check it after all. My turbo is covered with oil too, but that just has to be due to the negligence during oil changes, since accoring to the stick, I did not lose any oil between changes.

Does your marea 'consume' any oil?

The Dreaded Heater Matrix, tell me about it. I had a Sierra Heap some years back now, in the middle of Manchester the thing just burst and I was left with a lap full of steam and hot water. You have got to admire the positioning of these things, why not place them in the roof hanging just over your head because one day for sure, it will go

"Place them over your head", That's a good one, I am still laughing. Mobile sauna and a free shower.

I really appreciate the info on Heater Matrix replacement time. Thanks.

 

[b1gduk]

Does your marea 'consume' any oil?

"Place them over your head", That's a good one, I am still laughing. Mobile sauna and a free shower.

Free Sauna , shower and antishave , I can still remember the fragrance

No my Marea does not have other symptoms of a turbo problem. no oil on drive , no smoke , no oil usage so I am hoping as you say there is a more innocent explanation for the oil.

I have taken the plunge , rather than pa Fiat £80 or whatever to tell me its the MAF and then another £150 + hours labour to fit it. I have just order a new MAF including VAT and delivery for ....... £72

Might be a different story if it doesnt fix the problem :bang:

Watch this space :bang:

 

[fbarcode]

Please post back when you change the MAF. Surely it will go better with the new instead of cleaned one.

Garage changed my heater matrix. It seems like it was leaking between the metal and plastic part.
I guess I could do the job by myself. If I only knew where it was :bang:
If anyone wants to know, it is just behind passenger compartment, and it was just too easy to remove this, and then the radiator itself (my steering wheel is on the left side). 6 screws total. One hour tops. And then, they just turned the engine on, lot of bubbles came into the expansion tank, and that was it.

 

[tazztham]

hello guys,

very interesting topic and my 1.9 105 JTD must be having similar problem. acceleration is really slow in 1st n 2nd gear especially after making a turn and downshift to 2nd gear before acceleration. it hardly move and rpm climbing very slowly. however it run quite o.k. at 100kph in 5th.

i will carry out all the test recommended and see if i can restore the mighty pulling power. we r talking about 200Nm of torque here and should be similar or better performance than a 1.6 petrol engine.

Here is the list i am going to do...

1. MAF testing & cleaning
2. Check ERG valve
3. Check Overboost valve, piping, etc.

looking forward to your update...

thanks.

---> seeking help far from Malaysia <---

 

[tazztham]

hello everyone,

finally, i am kind of serviced my marea 1.9 jtd. here are what i did,

1. clean the MAF using video head cleaner spray, it cleaned very well.
2. install back the original air box so that cold air coming from the scoop.
3. replace front absorber link rod which was causing bad knocking sound.
4. replace 4 new rubbers, found one rim bent n causing bumping effect.

after all that, the engine seems a bit more responding and i am please with the power at this stage. maybe cleaning the EGC valve will help futher if it is jammed at the moment.

next will change gear oil and engine oil.

cheers... enjoying the diesel power now. wish it is a high boost turbo to give kick!