Technical Magnetic pollution - Main battery relocation

[yellowapple]

Hello,

I'll probably buy an Adria camper based on a fiat ducato 2.3 150HP.
The problem is that the battery is located right under the driver's feet.

As I'm specialized in electromagnetic pollution, I've done some measurements and found that the alternative magnetic field value is greater than 20000 nT at the battery level! This is above the maximum of my device, the NFA1000.

WHO and IARC are recommending not to exceed 400nT because this is potentially carcinogenic! I took contact with Fiat Belgium and have received approval to test mu-metal shielding on the floor of a test Ducato. The test was not easy at all because the shield is coming in a plate form. In fact to be able to test it properly, I need to remove the seats and the plastic protection on the ground to install the shield. I’ll test it probably on my future camper.

FYI, the magnetic field measured at the battery's level is alternative, generated by the alternator and transported to the battery by antenna effect. If the battery is far from the engine, like on some cars (in the trunk), the level is very high and the connectivity cable are travelling the right side of the car where you put the baby seats. In vehicles with battery in the engine bay, I’m measuring values below 100 nT and less than 5 nT on the rear seats.

Question: Is it possible to relocate the battery inside the engine bay?

I'll post a video of the measurement later on.

Thank you in advance.
yA

 

[CDK]

Batteries do not generate electromagnetic fields, so the location of a battery is not relevant.
The field -as you already stated- originates from the alternator and associated wiring and depends largely on the battery condition. Immediately after starting the charging current is more than 50 Amps, but drops to approx. 10% of that value within a few minutes.

I do not think 20.000 nT is dangerous, the "n" stands for nano which is next to nothing, but if it bothers you, reroute the battery cables. They are now horizontal directly under the plastic floor cover because that is cheaper. Drill a hole in the bottom of the battery bay and install new (longer) cables vertically, do the same with the earth strap.
If you still feel the field is too powerful, use shielded cables.

 

[yellowapple]

Thank you for your proposal, I'll check when the camper is here. Location of the battery is really the key but as stated the battery is not the issue. Shielding cables are only working on electrical fields, not magnetic. You must use mu-metal shielding to "reduce" and this is much most difficult.

Concerning your remark, I'm working on this topic for more than ten years and I can tell you that you should not have more than 200 nT in a sleeping area. 20000 nT is four times more than a house under power lines and I've seen leukemia with far less than that but of course it'll take 10 years. Are you ready to take this risk with your children?

WHO is announcing 40 to 45% kid’s brain tumor increase between 2000 and 2010 in European countries, this is more than 3% per year. We have dedicated hospitals full of kids having cancers, tumors and leukemia.

If you have 3 min, you should have a look at the international appeal – emfscientist dot org

I'll add the video after a few more posts

 

[corcai]

Did Fiat give you permission to don your tinfoil hat too.

The only evidence IARC has is limited evidence for childhood leukaemia associated with continuous exposure to ELF of 3000 - 4000 nT. The evidence is weak, subject to selection bias, has not been backed up by animal studies.

If you want to worry think about the exhaust gas from the diesel engine, the pm2.5 particulate matter from your hob, which have very definite conclusive evidence as a carcinogens. Then theres the off gassing within the van from particle boards, isocyanate insulation, polyurethanes etc. etc.

I would bet that thinking and stressing about EMF is more damaging to your health than your exposure to it under normal circumstances.

 

[yellowapple]

Thank you Corcai for your highly constructive answer to the original question. Magnetic field is one piece of the puzzle concerning global pollution but there are more than 60 years studies on the impact of EMF and HF.

I'll give you one single link, this is a report from the NASA in 81 - Take a look at table 11 and 12 http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19810017132.pdf

If you are following that spirit, I'm pretty sure that you are offering smartphones of tablets to your kids and that they are allowed to surf without limits. Do you now that a smartphone using LTE to surf on Netflix is generating 5000 times the EU Council's recommended HF limit (Resolution 1815).

Concerning your last remark, if you bet on this believe me you'll lose, this is just a question of time.

 

[andydiver]

Did Fiat give you permission to don your tinfoil hat too.

The only evidence IARC has is limited evidence for childhood leukaemia associated with continuous exposure to ELF of 3000 - 4000 nT. The evidence is weak, subject to selection bias, has not been backed up by animal studies.

If you want to worry think about the exhaust gas from the diesel engine, the pm2.5 particulate matter from your hob, which have very definite conclusive evidence as a carcinogens. Then theres the off gassing within the van from particle boards, isocyanate insulation, polyurethanes etc. etc.

I would bet that thinking and stressing about EMF is more damaging to your health than your exposure to it under normal circumstances.

What interesting discussions take place on this forum!! Without choosing to judge the actual potential harm of something would also consider time of exposure. So unless you wish to live 24 hours in the exact magnetic field zone you have measured I would relax. It is impossible in many places to avoid particulate or chemical carcinogens any time of day from the wider environment and I would prefer Fiat and the like reduce those first.

 

[yellowapple]

What interesting discussions take place on this forum!! Without choosing to judge the actual potential harm of something would also consider time of exposure. So unless you wish to live 24 hours in the exact magnetic field zone you have measured I would relax. It is impossible in many places to avoid particulate or chemical carcinogens any time of day from the wider environment and I would prefer Fiat and the like reduce those first.

Time of exposure will be the main factor and I agree this is not really important if you are driving a few hours a week. But in this case I’m speaking about a camper where you have the main battery directly under the feet of a driver and you can spend hours a day on the road. On old campers, batteries were located in both front seats. This is also the case for some cars like Citroen.

On top of this, you have to take into account the second and sometimes third batteries ! They are often located under the seats were the kids are sleeping or right behind them in the rollo of an Hymer. During the night, these batteries will be charged using camping local power.

I really don't want to convince you but we should all take the precautionary principle for our kids. 92% of them in the US are using smartphones to surf the Internet and more than 25% are using it 24 hours a day, they are sleeping with a charging phone with data enabled under the pilow! This is a combination of EMF and HF directly at the head of our kids.

I’m simply giving you my experience, in the last three years I’ve faced requests for children between 5 and 20 completely tired with often head turning, heart palpitations, tinnitus, etc … If you have seen in what environment they were sleeping, this was almost impossible for them to rest and recover. With a few modifications and habit adaptation they can easily recover in a month if the exposure is not too long! This magnetic field issue in the Fiat is just the top of the iceberg and is absolutely not linked to Fiat only. All cars with batteries in the boot are facing the same problem.

By the way I'm coming back to my original question, do you think that this is possible to move the main battery back under the hood? I've the feeling that there is no space at all.

Have a nice week.
yA

 

[g8rpi]

Without getting into the hazardous level or not, to stop the field there is an easier and cheaper method than Mu-metal. You need to use balanced and preferably twisted cables to the battery. Run the twisted cable from the battery to the alternator and a ground point in the engine bay. The balanced cable cause both static and alternating (ELF-HF) magnetic fields to cancel out. Don't ground the battery locally like under the seat.
Mu-metal will have problems maintining it's properties in such a large piece in a high vibration environment. Movent due to road and engine vibration will cause it to work harden over time and loose it's magnetic properties.

Robert G8RPI.

 

[Timmosio]

Why take life so seriously lol

 

[yellowapple]

Hello Robert,

Thank you very much for your answer. I've send the same question to multiple magnetic shielding companies and never have received this kind of answer. Most of the time, they are proposing multilayer non flexible very expensive mu-metal shields.

I’m looking for shield solutions for a long time and have found quite the same information to reduce magnetic field from alternative sources. Both cables must be side to side, twisted and if possible foiled/shielded. Do you thinks this is possible in the Ducato? Following the remark of CDK, I must drill a hole in the bottom of the battery bay and reroute both cables back in the engine bay. This is feasible with two cables but what about all the cables on the pictures? I'm still looking for the Ducato 2016 electrical diagrams.

 

[g8rpi]

Hi,
It would take quite a bit of work as the battery has been used as the main distribution point. You would have to move all the connections from each terminal to a suitable location distant from the seat. and connect from there to the battery with a two conductor twisted cable. For safety you would need a current limiter (high current fuse) at the battery positive terminal. I'd suggest 300A rating.

Robert G8RPI.

 

[Crossingkeeper]

This is a brilliant thread and has opened pages on a book that I didn't know I had

If this camper is ever sold on I am looking forward to the queries we may get on here from the new owner

 

[CDK]

from post #5
"Do you now that a smartphone using LTE to surf on Netflix is generating 5000 times the EU Council's recommended HF limit (Resolution 1815)."

Cell phones really do emit a lot of RF radiation, enough to be received by the antenna several miles away. And they are usually kept close to the brain! Yet I've never heard of people who claim their brain has been cooked. The secret lies in the principle of mobile telephony: data is sent at 900/1800 Mhz, so the duty cycle is incredibly low.

from post #7 :
"On top of this, you have to take into account the second and sometimes third batteries ! They are often located under the seats were the kids are sleeping or right behind them in the rollo of an Hymer. During the night, these batteries will be charged using camping local power."

These batteries are charged with low current DC, so magnetic fields are weak.

from post #10 :
"This is feasible with two cables but what about all the cables on the pictures? "

Strong magnetic fields are emitted from high current leads only. The distribution leads do create some high frequency noise, but not enough to influence the car radio or navigation.

20.000 nT looks scary, but only because the wrong units are used. You should not express the distance between two villages in millimeters or the weight of a car in grams.
Patients in an MRI scanner are subjected to a magnetic field of 3 Tesla (3000000000 nT) and come out unharmed.

 

[rayc]

I am on my third X250. The first two had a metal cover over the battery but my 2013 one does not. Am I at more of a risk from electromagnetic pollution without the metal cover in place?

 

[Techno100]

I am on my third X250. The first two had a metal cover over the battery but my 2013 one does not. Am I at more of a risk from electromagnetic pollution without the metal cover in place?

More at risk of a squidgy floor Ray

 

[toyogran]

Have been reading this topic with interest.
I think I have come up with a solution as regards the radiation emissions but not to sure about SO2 and NOx regulations

 

[digger58]

I think I'm in more danger of frying my brain taking too much notice of this! Life is a gamble anyway, enjoy it! Maybe my brain isn't what it used to be but f..k that, I'm intending enjoying what's left of it, roll on camper season 2016!