Looking for a specialist that isnt arnold clark (glasgow)

[PurplePersephone]

Looking for a garage or independent mechanic who specialises in fiats. I have a panda with a misfire issue that I can't diagnose. My usual garage said my best bet was to take it to arnold clark but I'd rather scoop my eye out with a spoon than give them £130 just to plug it in to a computer.

I have done a lot of repairs myself over the years and assure you I have checked all the common causes and my garage looked too. It's got us stumped.

 

[bugsymike]

Looking for a garage or independent mechanic who specialises in fiats. I have a panda with a misfire issue that I can't diagnose. My usual garage said my best bet was to take it to arnold clark but I'd rather scoop my eye out with a spoon than give them £130 just to plug it in to a computer.

I have done a lot of repairs myself over the years and assure you I have checked all the common causes and my garage looked too. It's got us stumped.

So what have you tried, to avoid duplication and when does it happen?

 

[PurplePersephone]

So what have you tried, to avoid duplication and when does it happen?

It's a misfire. Happens when I haven't driven the car for say 8 hours or more. Checked the fault codes, reads a misfire in cylinder 2. It has really high revs and violently shakes, smell of fuel. Standard symptoms for misfire. If I run the engine for a few minutes it goes away and the car runs normally. During the hot weather it took a lot longer for the issue to go away. About 10 minutes. Spark plugs are new, coils are fine, swapped them and still got the same fault codes, asked my garage to check too, said they arent the issue. Fuel injectors are fine, doesn't seem to be any issue with pressure. My usual garage looked over the engine and said they couldnt figure it out so to take it to a specialist, plug it in and run a proper diagnostic. Check engine light is intermittent. It came on and went off a few times last week, then one day it stayed on for a few days, now it is off again and it's not shaking nearly as badly. I'm all ears for advice
My fiance is considering downloading the software to check it on an old PC, we have the right cable somewhere...

Thanks

 

[bugsymike]

It's a misfire. Happens when I haven't driven the car for say 8 hours or more. Checked the fault codes, reads a misfire in cylinder 2. It has really high revs and violently shakes, smell of fuel. Standard symptoms for misfire. If I run the engine for a few minutes it goes away and the car runs normally. During the hot weather it took a lot longer for the issue to go away. About 10 minutes. Spark plugs are new, coils are fine, swapped them and still got the same fault codes, asked my garage to check too, said they arent the issue. Fuel injectors are fine, doesn't seem to be any issue with pressure. My usual garage looked over the engine and said they couldnt figure it out so to take it to a specialist, plug it in and run a proper diagnostic. Check engine light is intermittent. It came on and went off a few times last week, then one day it stayed on for a few days, now it is off again and it's not shaking nearly as badly. I'm all ears for advice
My fiance is considering downloading the software to check it on an old PC, we have the right cable somewhere...

Thanks

The Fiat Multiscan software is quite popular on the Forum, (no good for me as I run Linux on my PC) but there is a multiscan area on the forum who specialise, so error codes will be of interest to them.
Sounds like you have done a fair check already, my thoughts are, you smell petrol with the misfire so fuel getting to no 2 but not firing, any chance break in wire between ecu and coil pack for no.2, but strange only does it on start up, plus the high revs.
Petrol smell, at exhaust or at engine? Faulty dripping injector, not shutting off with ignition, flooding top of piston ? Engine oil doesn't smell petrol contaminated?
Cracked inlet manifold? Though strange only from cold.
Just throwing a few things out there for you to eliminate, if it was straight forward you and your garages would have sorted.
No loses of oil, water?
Had a 1.litre Corsa, inlet valves sticking in guides, eventually melted plastic inlet manifold to the point air leaked past the injectors.
Maybe someone else here has come across it.

 

[PurplePersephone]

The Fiat Multiscan software is quite popular on the Forum, (no good for me as I run Linux on my PC) but there is a multiscan area on the forum who specialise, so error codes will be of interest to them.
Sounds like you have done a fair check already, my thoughts are, you smell petrol with the misfire so fuel getting to no 2 but not firing, any chance break in wire between ecu and coil pack for no.2, but strange only does it on start up, plus the high revs.
Petrol smell, at exhaust or at engine? Faulty dripping injector, not shutting off with ignition, flooding top of piston ? Engine oil doesn't smell petrol contaminated?
Cracked inlet manifold? Though strange only from cold.
Just throwing a few things out there for you to eliminate, if it was straight forward you and your garages would have sorted.
No loses of oil, water?
Had a 1.litre Corsa, inlet valves sticking in guides, eventually melted plastic inlet manifold to the point air leaked past the injectors.
Maybe someone else here has come across it.

My my, thanks for the info haha I will do some more checks over the weekend and update ya!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Have you told us what Panda and year your's is? I've not owned a 1.1 but there are many posts on the forum about a wiring/plug fault at the ECU which can cause poor running. Doesn't seem to affect the 1.2 I understand? Lots of good stuff from Bugsy above so some more musings to follow here - Possibly a crank position sensor or it's associated wiring, although that would be likely to cause a more random missfire, not just on no 2? I've learned not to "trust" crank sensors though as I've been led a merry dance by them more than once. You've been looking at the coils and fitted new plugs but what about HT leads? If just the one cylinder is missing that's got to be a possibility. The HT leads can grip the plug very tightly making them difficult to remove. I've seen quite a few Panda and Punto HT leads which have been damaged by people pulling them off roughly which damages the end which fits on the plug. I don't think MES allows HT graphing but I'll put my copy up in "simulate" and see if I can find a way to do it. You could try checking them with a multimeter set to Ohms. Expect to see somewhere in the thousands of ohms scale, typically anywhere from maybe 5.000 to 20,000 ohms - the longer the lead the higher the reading. (average around 10,000 ohms per foot).

Bugsy - My Panda is wasted spark as far as I know with one coil firing 1 & 4 the other attending to 2 & 3 so a break in wiring from the ECU would affect both 2 and 3?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Nope, can't see a way to graph HT in MES.

 

[PurplePersephone]

Have you told us what Panda and year your's is? I've not owned a 1.1 but there are many posts on the forum about a wiring/plug fault at the ECU which can cause poor running. Doesn't seem to affect the 1.2 I understand? Lots of good stuff from Bugsy above so some more musings to follow here - Possibly a crank position sensor or it's associated wiring, although that would be likely to cause a more random missfire, not just on no 2? I've learned not to "trust" crank sensors though as I've been led a merry dance by them more than once. You've been looking at the coils and fitted new plugs but what about HT leads? If just the one cylinder is missing that's got to be a possibility. The HT leads can grip the plug very tightly making them difficult to remove. I've seen quite a few Panda and Punto HT leads which have been damaged by people pulling them off roughly which damages the end which fits on the plug. I don't think MES allows HT graphing but I'll put my copy up in "simulate" and see if I can find a way to do it. You could try checking them with a multimeter set to Ohms. Expect to see somewhere in the thousands of ohms scale, typically anywhere from maybe 5.000 to 20,000 ohms - the longer the lead the higher the reading. (average around 10,000 ohms per foot).

Bugsy - My Panda is wasted spark as far as I know with one coil firing 1 & 4 the other attending to 2 & 3 so a break in wiring from the ECU would affect both 2 and 3?

It's a 0.9 twin air turbo. Grand total of 2 cylinders and recently clocked 92k miles, 2013.
I shall definitely be referring to these responses when I'm going over it this weekend, thank you

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

It's a 0.9 twin air turbo. Grand total of 2 cylinders and recently clocked 92k miles, 2013.
I shall definitely be referring to these responses when I'm going over it this weekend, thank you

Ah, twin air, never laid hands on one I'm afraid. Dropping one cylinder is going to be pretty inconvenient then? ha ha! best of luck with it. Pity you're on the west side of the country, there's a couple of good Fiat indys over here I could point you at. Do keep us updated on your outcome please.
PS your coils will be individual "coil on" units aren't they? so no HT leads to bother with. Got my fingers crossed for you that it's not the hydraulic valve body itself - I believe they are VERY fussy about oil too - re the valve actuation - might it have been fed the wrong oil at some time?

 

[PurplePersephone]

Ah, twin air, never laid hands on one I'm afraid. Dropping one cylinder is going to be pretty inconvenient then? ha ha! best of luck with it. Pity you're on the west side of the country, there's a couple of good Fiat indys over here I could point you at. Do keep us updated on your outcome please.
PS your coils will be individual "coil on" units aren't they? so no HT leads to bother with. Got my fingers crossed for you that it's not the hydraulic valve body itself - I believe they are VERY fussy about oil too - re the valve actuation - might it have been fed the wrong oil at some time?

This is interesting.. we did an oil change about a month ago but the factor ran my reg plate so I was getting the right oil.. however.. a year ago I was getting a new suspension arm, they used my reg but sent me the wrong part... I think I shall look into this more thoroughly

 

[PurplePersephone]

Any recommendations for an engine oil flush? We have decided to do an oil change again, its unclear if we made a mistake as we dont remember exactly what we used. Going to use an engine flush, then slick 50, then replace it with exactly what is in the manual, screw checking the reg hahaha

 

[bugsymike]

Have you told us what Panda and year your's is? I've not owned a 1.1 but there are many posts on the forum about a wiring/plug fault at the ECU which can cause poor running. Doesn't seem to affect the 1.2 I understand? Lots of good stuff from Bugsy above so some more musings to follow here - Possibly a crank position sensor or it's associated wiring, although that would be likely to cause a more random missfire, not just on no 2? I've learned not to "trust" crank sensors though as I've been led a merry dance by them more than once. You've been looking at the coils and fitted new plugs but what about HT leads? If just the one cylinder is missing that's got to be a possibility. The HT leads can grip the plug very tightly making them difficult to remove. I've seen quite a few Panda and Punto HT leads which have been damaged by people pulling them off roughly which damages the end which fits on the plug. I don't think MES allows HT graphing but I'll put my copy up in "simulate" and see if I can find a way to do it. You could try checking them with a multimeter set to Ohms. Expect to see somewhere in the thousands of ohms scale, typically anywhere from maybe 5.000 to 20,000 ohms - the longer the lead the higher the reading. (average around 10,000 ohms per foot).

Bugsy - My Panda is wasted spark as far as I know with one coil firing 1 & 4 the other attending to 2 & 3 so a break in wiring from the ECU would affect both 2 and 3?

I agree with Jock, especially testing HT leads with Ohm meter for breaks. In the old days with copper leads it wasn't a problem , but the modern silicon/carbon leads are easily damaged and do cause misfires.
As you say Jock if wasted spark you would expect fault showing on both cylinders usually. Sorry I don't have any specific knowledge re Twin Air engines.
From a engineering point of view my preference is larger capacity engines underworked rather than small ones overworked for longevity, sadly environmentally issues force us into this situation.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

According to Shop4parts - a supplier who I think very highly of and are very helpful people to call for info - your oil should be this:https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Product&ProdID=24796 Selenia is Fiat's recommended product (I believe made by Petronas?) Try giving them, S4p, a ring with your VIN (chassis number) and double check that this is right for your car - even if you don't actually buy from them.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Any recommendations for an engine oil flush? We have decided to do an oil change again, its unclear if we made a mistake as we dont remember exactly what we used. Going to use an engine flush, then slick 50, then replace it with exactly what is in the manual, screw checking the reg hahaha

Why the Slick 50? Although I've no practical hands on with the twin or multi air engines I've read a lot on them. The ability of the hydraulic valve actuation to, almost infinitely, vary valve opening/timing is an interesting idea but there's increased opportunity for "stuff" to go wrong too so I've steered away from them. I think it's fair to say they are known to be a bit "fragile"? - please someone correct me if you think I'm wrong - and especially problems can manifest if incorrect oil is used. So, if it were me, I'd not be "chancing it" with unapproved additives and just fill it with the correct oil and nothing else.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks for the "like" Mike. The whole subject of additives and their efficacy is a fascinating one that's long fascinated me. They promise mystically wonderful results but rarely, in my experience, fulfill that promise.

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks for the "like" Mike. The whole subject of additives and their efficacy is a fascinating one that's long fascinated me. They promise mystically wonderful results but rarely, in my experience, fulfill that promise.

When STP was first touted around it was claimed to do many things, but the same with most additives, hard to confirm.
I maintain regular oil change and filter at less than makers intervals, plus with diesels I like to run engine flush then change oil and filter.
Like you, fragile is a good description of modern engine design.
I think manufacturers have taken "built in obsolescence" to an extreme. Personally I think electric cars will only confirm this.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

When STP was first touted around it was claimed to do many things, but the same with most additives, hard to confirm.
I maintain regular oil change and filter at less than makers intervals, plus with diesels I like to run engine flush then change oil and filter.
Like you, fragile is a good description of modern engine design.
I think manufacturers have taken "built in obsolescence" to an extreme. Personally I think electric cars will only confirm this.

I'm aware of STP of course but never had anything to do with it. When I was at college down in the "Big Smoke" I and two very good friends who were also students there became obsessed with Drag racing. We would save up all our money and travel up to Santa Pod - in it's very earliest days - in my pals rickety old Mini Van and spend the weekend camping out, drinking far too much and enjoying the "Drags". Back in those days you had to have a Wynns sticker on your car. Wynns was very big in drag racing and most of the serious racers carried their stickers. Also, to look "cool", you had to have a can of Colt 45 Malt Liquor (beer) which is what the American servicemen would be drinking. As young impressionable "idiots" we all had an empty can which would come out to be carried when wandering around the pits! How pathetic was that!

When, some years later, I went to work in general motor repair our garage stocked Wynns products and there was a big product display in the customer waiting area. It was a good profitable add on to my sales. One of the big sellers was their "wonder" cure for worn motors called Wynns Charge. It poured out of the tin like thick treacle If I remember it was only to be put into a fully warmed up engine and you had to winkle the last out of the tin with something like a knife from the rest room! I can remember looking at it and thinking "I bet none of the racers put that in their engines"! It was pretty good at stopping smoky engines from smoking (for a while anyway) One product of their's which did seem to work very well was their radiator stop leak. it's very different to the products which clog the system up with deposits, once in the radiator you'd never know it was there and I could see no residual traces in the one engine I did a head gasket on which I knew for certain had the product installed - no deposits in the bottom of the water jacket or other problems commonly found in an engine that's had a product of this sort installed. My attitude now a days is to buy a really good oil to the manufacturer's spec and just let it do it's job. I'd never add anything to either engine or transmission oils. Fuel additives I'm not quite so sure about. In the main I think they probably don't do very much although regularly running some injector cleaner could be a good idea to stop injector fouling however It needs to be done on an ongoing basis. Having said that I'm running Archoil AR 6900-P MAX in the Ibiza in the hope it'll slow down the formation of carbon fouling in the inlets (DI engine) I'm not all that hopeful, but at worst probably all I'm doing is wasting my money!

 

[bugsymike]

I'm aware of STP of course but never had anything to do with it. When I was at college down in the "Big Smoke" I and two very good friends who were also students there became obsessed with Drag racing. We would save up all our money and travel up to Santa Pod - in it's very earliest days - in my pals rickety old Mini Van and spend the weekend camping out, drinking far too much and enjoying the "Drags". Back in those days you had to have a Wynns sticker on your car. Wynns was very big in drag racing and most of the serious racers carried their stickers. Also, to look "cool", you had to have a can of Colt 45 Malt Liquor (beer) which is what the American servicemen would be drinking. As young impressionable "idiots" we all had an empty can which would come out to be carried when wandering around the pits! How pathetic was that!

When, some years later, I went to work in general motor repair our garage stocked Wynns products and there was a big product display in the customer waiting area. It was a good profitable add on to my sales. One of the big sellers was their "wonder" cure for worn motors called Wynns Charge. It poured out of the tin like thick treacle If I remember it was only to be put into a fully warmed up engine and you had to winkle the last out of the tin with something like a knife from the rest room! I can remember looking at it and thinking "I bet none of the racers put that in their engines"! It was pretty good at stopping smoky engines from smoking (for a while anyway) One product of their's which did seem to work very well was their radiator stop leak. it's very different to the products which clog the system up with deposits, once in the radiator you'd never know it was there and I could see no residual traces in the one engine I did a head gasket on which I knew for certain had the product installed - no deposits in the bottom of the water jacket or other problems commonly found in an engine that's had a product of this sort installed. My attitude now a days is to buy a really good oil to the manufacturer's spec and just let it do it's job. I'd never add anything to either engine or transmission oils. Fuel additives I'm not quite so sure about. In the main I think they probably don't do very much although regularly running some injector cleaner could be a good idea to stop injector fouling however It needs to be done on an ongoing basis. Having said that I'm running Archoil AR 6900-P MAX in the Ibiza in the hope it'll slow down the formation of carbon fouling in the inlets (DI engine) I'm not all that hopeful, but at worst probably all I'm doing is wasting my money!

I do use the Wynns Engine Flush as I mentioned for cleaning out diesels prior to new oil and filter, but only in for 20 minutes so heh ho!
I watched one live Drag Race around 1970 on the airfield that was our local Kart Racing site and being impressed how an engine could sound so rough and lumpy (like an old car with the choke out) and yet next thing could be screaming at full throttle at the other end of a 1/4 mile. The throttle response amazed me .
I like the "street cred" bit with the Colt 45 tins .
Saying about not using additives in gearboxes reminded me of the adverts in American Hot Rod mags to "recondition " worn gearboxes, as I understand it they contained something like cellulose thinners which swelled the seals for a week or two, when if you were smart you sold the car, then the box would fail spectacularly .
As you say modern oils probably contain all the necessary.
Although I am less impressed with silicon and ethanol in the fuels!

 

[The Panda Nut]

Any recommendations for an engine oil flush? We have decided to do an oil change again, its unclear if we made a mistake as we dont remember exactly what we used. Going to use an engine flush, then slick 50, then replace it with exactly what is in the manual, screw checking the reg hahaha

Quoting the Dutch Panda club, no dont flush. The twinair unit has a filter and lossening dirt in the oil could result in this and indeedthe TA unit blocking and failing. Plugs seem to be an issue and the roight ones are expensive but worth the money. Do a search on here as these misfilres are not that unusual and there is more information that may be useful. The cleaning of th TA unit filter is also covered with diagrams too. CLeaning this filter seems agood idea! Basically is a bolt screwed in and removed from atop the engine after removal of the engine cover. If removing this go slowly as some of the plastic parts and pipe flanges are easily broken. You may need clip R pliers to ge the hose and duct clips off.

 

[The Panda Nut]

When STP was first touted around it was claimed to do many things, but the same with most additives, hard to confirm.
I maintain regular oil change and filter at less than makers intervals, plus with diesels I like to run engine flush then change oil and filter.
Like you, fragile is a good description of modern engine design.
I think manufacturers have taken "built in obsolescence" to an extreme. Personally I think electric cars will only confirm this.

I have been looking for a decent 2nd hand electric car and have found that the ones on offer for around £10000.... which is much more than I want to pay are not quoting any range and the one that did was 75 miles and at £9800 and 9 years old does not looke even vaguely favorable. I shall carry on looking and see if anything interesting does materialise. I have in mind a budget of £2-3K bur expect something tolerable and with a recently verified range checked at around 90 miles, anything less would be a pain. It will be interesting to see if your comments on EV's are correct.
I have spoken at length to GEM's technical advisor on oils and he seems well informed and in touch with car and engine maufacturers and oil makers too. He was very firmly of the opinion that sticking to EXACTLY whats recommended is the right choice. Oils are manufactured to produce the properties required these days and additives no longer likely to benefit. Adding anything to the correct spec oil on a TA is in my opinion an act of suicidal proportions. The oil in a TA lubricates and acts as a hydraulic oil and affectsthe proper running and timing of the engine. Mess with it if you want to, but this Panda Nuts not for messing with such a vital and specific tolerance component. Im even wary of moving from the Petronas oil specified, And I am NOT impressed with Petronas oil having recently got it our of our two 169's I fear its damaged one and done the other no good at all. The 2014 car has no oil supply related rattles at all on start up even after 3 weeks of standing in the garage in 30C heat with Castrol, unlike with Petronas Syntium. I wouldnt use that for oiling gate hinges!!! It resembled bad quality cooking oil after a chip pan fire after around 2000 miles of running driven very sensibly by Mrs P Nut who is probably the worlds mist sensible driver. (For that also read frustartingly slow on any long drive)