LED Headlamps - Some nastiness on FB

[Derek C]

Please excuse the length of this post but I have recently noticed an increase in ‘angry people’ regarding the so called ‘illegal’ use of LED bulbs. Certainly, a FB forum post that resulted in PMs with sexual swear words to a Panda owner and reference to reporting unroadworthy vehicles, death and prison threats suggest some people are not being nice to each other. This post is intended for a rational discussion so if you end every discussion with ‘your stupid cause I am right’ don’t bother posting.

I come to this forum with almost 50 years of modifying, detailing and restoring cars and bikes. My day job has included working on everything from mining equipment to ram jet engines and most of the last 30 years in HSE and legislative compliance. I am a chartered mechanical engineer, Fellow of an institute and SME for an aerospace company. I am not a police office, lawyer, barrister, judge or writer of legal statutes. If you are one of those you win any argument on what’s legal hands down!

LEDs are amazing devices that use less energy, can be easily configured and controlled for output and are significantly more resilient against shock and vibration. I predict that they will eventually replace all conventional bulbs and very soon. My basis for this is the rapid growth in the industrial, commercial, domestic consumer and defence markets.

So, what’s the issue?

LED technology advanced rapidly and of course Chinese exports offered this improved technology cheaply and hence the growth of this market encouraged more and better developments. The legislators however have failed as usual to keep up. The use of after market bulbs is covered by The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 and the World Forum for Harmonization of Vehicle Regulations (ECE Regulations) Regulation 37. You could spend hours reading these but they refer to filament bulbs. The regulations refer to an E mark. LEDs can’t have an E mark as there is no detail in the regulations. Note there is a E mark for almost every bit of a motor vehicle.

The legislation needs to change and eventually the legislators will be forced as conventional bulbs disappear.

Here lots of people will go its illegal then? Well, they are not ‘road legal’ but so is any other item (brakes, windscreen, number plate light bulb etc) you have on your vehicle that does not have a E mark.

Is it illegal sell, buy and or to fit an LED bulb of any type to your vehicle? My view no. You can fit what ever you like to your vehicle within reason. The issue is use. Remember that having any lights fitted other than brake is not mandated (track day cars, trial bikes etc.) for an MoT just if fitted they have to work. I could happily drive to an off-road location, use my LED headlights then drive home in daylight without them on. Have I committed an offence?

To claim illegal, you need to define the offence. Dazzling, blinding or otherwise distracting other road uses by the use of excessively bright, misaligned or defective headlights is a good definition. Everyone with extra bright bulbs from eBay, extra power bulbs (55w when your rating is 35w Classic Panda owners), tinted bulbs etc. etc. all potential for an offence. No fluid in your HID head lamp wash, one light broken and driving with fog lights when its not foggy all offences.

As I said at the beginning the people that can define an offence are police office, lawyer, barrister, judge or writer of legal statutes. We are not a Police state (yet) and for every offence we all have the right to be judged by our peers in court and then we have a right of appeal. Fitting an LED bulb will not have your car crushed and will not get you thrown in prison.

The roadworthy issue has recently changed. If an MoT inspector identifies aftermarket HID or LED head lamp bulbs you will get a fail. A punitive reaction by the Brexit Government fighting with technology challenging 1989 legislation and throwing the problem to the garages. However, a MoT inspection cannot include the removal of parts even lower engine covers to inspect suspension. The inspector could guess perhaps? He or she cannot strip the headlamp or any other parts to check for the E mark.

Why are a large number of people unhappy with LEDs? Well early bulbs were poor by design and had very odd light scatter patterns, lots of flickering and a tendency to go on/off when overheating. It was also convenient to blame LED users for all oncoming headlamp deficiencies. More 50% brighter, tinted and larger power filament bulbs have been sold. Xenon upgrades to Halogen lamps are common. My hate is LED number plate bulbs that are so bright they obscure the plate characters (oh yea that’s an offence). Modern LEDs are better designed and give very good patterns deliberately to avoid drawing any attention to the device. The suppliers want the market and automotive aftermarket sales are quality driven.

So, the future is LED and the issue is updating the regulations before the market takes control. I think its already done so. Look at so called ’legal highs’ electric scooters and CB radio.

Will you get pulled over? Not if it’s a quality product and doesn’t cause the dazzling etc detailed above. Is the only crime getting caught or is it a government that won’t keep pace with technology?

Me? I have 19 LEDs units/bulbs on my Panda only 2 are in question. I have a valid MoT so by the Government measure I am roadworthy. All my mods (lots) are declared to my insurance company including the LEDs and I have an engineers report on the renovation. I also have a headlamp test record that’s fully compliant with UK requirements. I have no idea how many of the classic original parts are E marked but as it was built in 1987 probably few. Roadworthy? Well on road it has interesting handling characteristics off road it’s a monster. A set of Defender LED sealed units are £120 so I might go that route for the next build.

Finishing we should as car enthusiasts be kind to like-minded souls. Well unless you have a bike rack covering your number plate and don’t know how to turn your fog lamps off. Please don’t claim you are so legally aware that you can declare what’s illegal, not roadworthy and decide punishment until you fall into the earlier defined categories. I can find no court cases, case law or other actions concerning fitting LED headlamp bulbs. If you can please share.

More info?

https://www.suffolk.police.uk/advice/roads-and-vehicles/car-modifications

https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/

https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/blog/are-led-headlights-legal-in-the-uk/

https://www.halfords.com/motoring/advice/car-bulbs-and-the-law.html

 

[Dave lee]

This US article is interesting

https://www.motortrend.com/news/us-headlights-standard-108-update-infrastructure-law/

 

[StevenRB45]

To be fair, I'd imagine an awful lot of rage would be directed at those who just bang a set of the cheapest possible bulbs into a unit and pay no mind to aim or the correct beam pattern.

Exactly the same people who would have put the cheapest Chinese hids in 10 years ago.

Obviously doesn't excuse the denizens of Facebook being.. well the denizens of Facebook.

No one wants to be blinded by someone with the finest Chinesium headlamp bulbs, be they +150% halogens fitted upside down...poorly manufactured hids (in the old days it wasn't uncommon for cheap ones to be curved)..or leds with light in all the wrong places.

Manufacturer set ups with autolevel are bad enough before you get to what Keith found on ebay and made work with some zip ties.

A good set is 3x the price of a set of halogens at least..and very few pay that.

 

[mj2k]

I often treat those who dazzle me with poorly angled LEDs / HIDs with a good blast of main beam; satisfying, and it allows me to see what's up ahead - the roads around here are very windy and unlit, and 2-3 seconds of not being able to see the road ahead causes a real risk to other road users and wildlife. So I can understand some of the anger tbh, bad aftermarket LEDs / HIDs (esp some over-powerful blue-white ones) are not a 'victimless crime', they cause a real danger on country roads. Good factory fitted LEDs, e.g. the 'laser lights' on the latest BMWs are a boon however, the precise, controlled beam they project (which adjusts according to road undulations / cornering) is far better than traditional halogens and HIDs both for the driver, and oncoming traffic.

Also those cheap Chinese LEDs can cause electrical issues - I've come across one case on another forum where the LEDs in the array of an interior light were wired in parallel rather than serial and had no over-voltage protection, so when one shorted it resulted in too much current flowing through the interior light circuit, which fried the poor soul's factory alarm (which ran the interior light timer). £330 plus fitting turned out to be a very expensive set of cheap LED interior lights...

Facebook is the home of the sweary troll though, and I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole personally because data security concerns aside, you have no idea what stupid little thing is going to offend someone and result in a barrage of abuse.

 

[AndyRKett]

The main issue with what is “illegal” is what is not “legal” as defined in the relevant legislatio, there is nothing in the vehicle lighting regs about NOT being allowed to use something. With the 1989 regs the law repeated states ‘incandescent’ bulbs because thats all they had back then…. Well they had LEDs but they were not bright enough by a huge margin.

so the zealots get on their soap box and bleat on about what is and isn’t allowed. Makes them feel superior because they’ve googled a old piece of legislation. But as you also point out the the European regulations have allowed all sorts of things since 1989, and now virtually every new car either comes with or has an option for LED lights on all four corners. Out Mini Countryman has factory fitted LED headlights that are perfectly legal

I think this creates a huge grey area when it comes to fitting aftermarket LED lamps. Why is it ok to fit one set of LED lights to one car but its not ok to fit different LED lamp to another car, especially as the light generated from an LED comes from a much finer point that say a long filament on an incandescent bulb.

Then these people will get hung up on the exact positioning of the light source and relation to the lamp unit and reflectors and how this will almost definately blind any other car on the road…

Going back to my Mini Countryman (and the person above who reports mainbeaming anyone they think has too bright head lights) these have factory fitted LEDs and are incredibly bright, in their standard position they do usually garner and lot of morons who think its ok to main beam you, and blind you for driving around with your standard factory fitted and perfectly legal head lights (they then usually regret it if I return the favour) we actually sent the car back to mini after a month to have the lights checked because of how often we were being blinded and despite everything being ok, we still asked them to tip the lights down a degree or two, not because i was too bothered about the brightness and its affect on other people (remember this is a type approved car) but because I was p*$£ed off with idiots feeling they have some right to blind me for having headlights brighter than they are used to seeing (Probably now people wouldn’t notice so much as most new cars have them these days)

I don’t see a problem with LEDs in cars, but you’re right a lot of people do, not because the lights are dangerous or even that they cause any problems but because of “the rules” the 1989 laws that must be obeyed.

Yet working for an aerospace company you’ll probably know who many aircraft now have LEDs to replace landing lights, nav lights etc, much better than bulbs that burn out, much more robust in an aircraft that frequently goes from 20’c on the ground to -50’c at XX,000feet. much less of a burden on electrical systems and much cleaner and clearer light as well.

These days I don’t care if someone wants to fit LED lights (much rather that than crappy HIDs) the only stipulation as with car lighting in general is it should not cause a problem for other road users. one other thing is that the lights themselves should not be unsafe, in terms of Super high Power LEDs which will still pull 55W producing way more light than a conventional bulb, but then produce a huge amount of heat as well. With incadescant bulbs the heat is all up front, where as with LEDs the heat is usually right at the back of the unit hence why a lot of them are fitted with little fans on the back to get rid of the heat.

I could go on, but as it stands I don’t see an express reason why someone should not be able to replace a bulb in their car with an LED equivalent

 

[RalphM]

I have LED's in the side lights and they are very visible.
but have not fitted any to the main/headlights due to
having a scooter with them from new factory fitted,
they look incredibly bright from the front but when
riding they are very odd, you can see a pool of light
in front of the bike even in daylight and they will reflect
from road signs and reflectors the best part of a mile
away but they are nowhere near as good as halogen
bulbs for driving with.

 

[s130]

Well I've fitted an LED to my 500X reversing lamp AND got approval from my insurance company to do so. As it happens also reversing lamps also fall outside of most/all UK lighting regulations.

Now I was (many moons ago) an expert on underwater lighting (wavelength etc. etc) and could say and prove that fog lamps (using underwater tech) and not complying with UK/EU lighting legislation we far superior to those dictated/allowed by current legislation.

As much as we all hate, argue against, ..... many current regulations and restrictions it is a fact that the law is the law, regulatory standards are there to (as best as they can) protect all/public from potentially bad kit and we as a society should follow these "asis" and IF "asis" is clearly wrong and outdated then we should be campaigning to get the regulations changed and not advocating illegal use of 'whatever' be that vehicle lights, drugs, ......

One of my past pet hates is those that use lower fog lamps to look cool. Sorry you look frigging stupid. This is illegal under highway code regulations. What these stupid drivers don't see is that on wet or shiny road surfaces the narrow incidence of the light on the reflective road surface actually causes significant blinding and disruption of vision for many drivers. Even more so for those more elderly perfectly legal to drive drivers who are beginning to get the onset of eye cataracts.

The OP raised the concern/observation of "increase in ‘angry people’ regarding the so called ‘illegal’ use of LED bulbs". All I would say is that is not for me, the OP, or anyone else to say what is legal or illegal, within regulations or without. So on that front there is no argument to be had. That said I don't think it is appropriate for me or anyone else to victimise and take the law into our own hands as "angry people".

As has been discussed many times before there is NO issue with headlamp or lighting units tested and approved and legally stamped to be running with LED or Halogen or Xenon or carbon arc, candles or oil lamps. The problem and controversy and in some cases anger arises from the inappropriate or illegal operation/use of any lighting unit.

I will also say / acknowledge that retro fit LEDs or Zenons (apart from looking cool and ego boosting etc.) can and do provide better illumination for the driver over halogen bulbs. That said this is a one way / my view / my opinion observation result that does NOT take into consideration the opposing driver's view and dazzling experience.

Please note. I'm not angry and this is not a post to elevate any aggression. The OP mentioned abuse (references to sexual) and this IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE. The OP is also right about the value, efficiency etc. of LEDs and has my 100% support. I think where we may? differ is that you just can't plonk an LED bulb into a headlamp unit designed for halogen/other illumination sources. Reverse is true as well. Bulbs/LEDs/Reflectors/Lenses/Beam Condensers etc. are all carefully designed to work together in an approved and tested fashion for everybody's experience and safety and to change any one component part can and does cause issues for other road users.

If you are going off road, out backing, etc. then wide and strong "illumination" can be essential but this is a completely different case to legal road use.

 

[mj2k]

I guess it's a matter of semantics whether an MOT fail makes something illegal, but as of Jan 2021 it was an MOT fail to have an aftermarket LED conversion. And then an addendum was released in Mar 2021 stating, er, I'm not quite sure what really...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...mot-special-notice-01-21-headlamp-conversions

I think what it's saying is LED conversions on pre-1986 cars and all motorcycles is fine, but post-1986 cars will fail according to clause 4.1.4 in the MOT inspection manual:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-ins...ectors-and-electrical-equipment#section-4-1-4

"Existing halogen headlamp units on vehicles first used on or after 1 April 1986 must not be converted to be used with high intensity discharge (HID) or light emitting diode (LED) bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp for light source and lamp not compatible."

But it appears if you fit new headlamps specifically designed for HIDs or LEDs, that's not an automatic fail, as long as they also have a functional self-levelling and/or cleaning device, if fitted. Um, ok, nice and clear then.

How's the poor MOT inspector supposed to know if the headlight housing was designed for LEDs or not, unless the LED conversion's obviously hacked together by a DIY-er with gaffer tape and cable ties? I'm guessing although they are an MOT fail now, probably very few cars will earn an actual MOT fail because the inspectors won't know whether to fail the car or not, and the first you'll know about having unroadworthy (let's avoid the term illegal) headlights would be when the insurance assessor examines your car after an accident and tells the insurance company not to pay out, or if a dazzled police officer pulls you over.

 

[mj2k]

As for the poster with the countryman headlight aim issue - it's seemingly a known problem:

https://www.minif56.com/threads/headlight-vertical-aim-control-failure.87968/
https://www.minif56.com/threads/headlight-levelling-issue.84337/
https://xenons4u.co.uk/blog/bmw-headlight-vertical-aim-control-failure/

 

[AndyRKett]

As for the poster with the countryman headlight aim issue - it's seemingly a known problem:

https://www.minif56.com/threads/headlight-vertical-aim-control-failure.87968/
https://www.minif56.com/threads/headlight-levelling-issue.84337/
https://xenons4u.co.uk/blog/bmw-headlight-vertical-aim-control-failure/

one post for an older model R60 countryman which apparently his mechanic told him he doesn’t even have self levelling head lights.

a post for a Clubman….

and a post only about BMWs with no mention of Mini and talks about the levelling module failing.

Firstly I don’t think that makes a known problem, and secondly at the time our car was a brand new F60 model Mini Countryman, everything worked exactly like it should, it’s just the aim of the lights was a touch high and every **** on the road felt it their moral obligation to mainbeam you as you went buy.

took it to the Dealer a couple of months after getting it and they tweaked the lights down a touch in about 2 minutes, no catastrophically faulty parts, it was a brand new car of a recently released new model and with the new LED head lights (not HID)

 

[mj2k]

one post for an older model R60 countryman which apparently his mechanic told him he doesn’t even have self levelling head lights.

a post for a Clubman….

and a post only about BMWs with no mention of Mini and talks about the levelling module failing.

Firstly I don’t think that makes a known problem, and secondly at the time our car was a brand new F60 model Mini Countryman, everything worked exactly like it should, it’s just the aim of the lights was a touch high and every **** on the road felt it their moral obligation to mainbeam you as you went buy.

took it to the Dealer a couple of months after getting it and they tweaked the lights down a touch in about 2 minutes, no catastrophically faulty parts, it was a brand new car of a recently released new model and with the new LED head lights (not HID)

Don't take my word for it, do a google for mini led headlight aim and you'll find plenty of posts...

Issue's not unique to the mini of course - the same applies to any self-levelling system whether HID or LED, except the newest laser-guided systems. Basically they operate by a balljointed arm attached between a front suspension wishbone and a potentiometer fixed to the body which is used to control headlight aim height, either when the car is loaded or hits a bump. Commonest issues are the arm seizing, falling off or wearing, which will result in the aim going all over the place on bumpy roads, or simply sticking in one place (which on newer cars should cause an error). Once again this should cause an MOT fail, but that's another tricky one for the poor old MOT inspector to check unless the joint's obviously worn or broken, or the headlight aim's totally duff (in which case he'll no doubt adjust it) so I suspect as time goes on we'll see more and more wonky, wobbly headlights randomly illuminating everything in front from the road 3m in front to oncoming drivers, to trees...

Thinking about it, fitting lowering springs / coilovers would also adversely affect the self leveling, unless the little arm is adjustable, and I suspect ditto with uprated dampers since it'd take out some of the bounce which causes the arm / potentiometer to move.

Not so likely on a brand new car unless it's been set up badly, so maybe your issue was simply that nobody was used to it like you said, or it wasn't quite set up right out of the box.

 

[s130]

Whilst people are discussing self levelling the 500X 2015 has Xenon headlamps AND NO self levelling or cleaning device. This is legal / allowed because the lamps to not exceed 2000 lumens.

Oddly even Hella get the regulations wrong.

See https://www.hella.com/techworld/uk/Technical/Automotive-lighting/Headlamp-levelling-system-838/# where they say "Since 1993, new vehicles have been legally required to have a headlamp levelling system. The regulations can be found in the directives 76/756/EEC and ECE-R48."

Well self levelling is only required if emitted light power exceeds 2000 lumens and defined in ECE-R48.

The problem (for want of a better word) is that Xenons and LED lamps have VERY sharply defined beam cut-off. With old incandescent and newer halogen bulbs then yes there is a beam cut-off pattern but there it is actually a bleed and dispersion of light. So for the oncoming driver their eyes see a progressive fading of light and the ups and downs of the vehicles headlamps coupled with the light dispersion give the eye far more time to accommodate the changes. With Xenons / LEDs then what the oncoming driver sees is a radical laser like illumination change.

If one reads ECE-R48 then one will see very precise technical data from chromaticity to positions, combinations of factors/units, etc. These were not put to paper/law without due technical and approvals consultations etc. (as are all standards). The problem is that no standard is perfect and there will always be some issues at some point. That said it is clear that the intent of these standards is to either eliminate or severely mitigate issues and plonking an LED in a home made or incandescent lamp housing, or removing or cheating emission controlling devices, etc. is not good practice!

 

[mj2k]

Whilst people are discussing self levelling the 500X 2015 has Xenon headlamps AND NO self levelling or cleaning device. This is legal / allowed because the lamps to not exceed 2000 lumens.

Oddly even Hella get the regulations wrong.

See https://www.hella.com/techworld/uk/Technical/Automotive-lighting/Headlamp-levelling-system-838/# where they say "Since 1993, new vehicles have been legally required to have a headlamp levelling system. The regulations can be found in the directives 76/756/EEC and ECE-R48."

Well self levelling is only required if emitted light power exceeds 2000 lumens and defined in ECE-R48.

The problem (for want of a better word) is that Xenons and LED lamps have VERY sharply defined beam cut-off. With old incandescent and newer halogen bulbs then yes there is a beam cut-off pattern but there it is actually a bleed and dispersion of light. So for the oncoming driver their eyes see a progressive fading of light and the ups and downs of the vehicles headlamps coupled with the light dispersion give the eye far more time to accommodate the changes. With Xenons / LEDs then what the oncoming driver sees is a radical laser like illumination change.

If one reads ECE-R48 then one will see very precise technical data from chromaticity to positions, combinations of factors/units, etc. These were not put to paper/law without due technical and approvals consultations etc. (as are all standards). The problem is that no standard is perfect and there will always be some issues at some point. That said it is clear that the intent of these standards is to either eliminate or severely mitigate issues and plonking an LED in a home made or incandescent lamp housing, or removing or cheating emission controlling devices, etc. is not good practice!

Agreed, I believe that clause was originally put in to accommodate older factory-fitted BMW / Subaru HIDs which did not have a washer or self-levelling, and thus would have been classed as unroadworthy under the amended MOT regs. Hence the confusing 'must work where fitted' clause in the regulations for washers / self-levelling.

You obviously know far, far more about the ECE directive than me but I'd definitely noticed that sharp definition which you mention - on my old Subaru HIDs I noticed while the centre of the road was better illuminated there was very little coverage of the verges, which I find useful for spotting where the edge of the road is on unmarked roads, and for spotting annoying things like Muntjacs (those little pig-like deer) before they hop out in front of you and make a dent in your car. So I actually removed the HIDs from my older Subarus and refitted halogen assemblies from lower-spec models to work around the issue.

I think there's one very simple rule of thumb to work by when it comes to headlights, no matter the complexity of directives / regulations (law?) though. Much like if you use public transport and often notice people sitting near you comment on the weird smell, if you often find oncoming traffic flashes you when you're on dipped beams, you know you've got an issue which needs fixing

 

[s130]

Talking of verge view and Muntjacs etc. hopping out I gather the Australians had a big issue with driverless cars/technology/algorithms in that there is no progression and tracking possible when "skippy" leaps into the road from nowhere. Not much fun for either party. Us humans often get caught out not because we don't see them but because our reactions are too slow or there is nowhere to go or stop in time.

 

[vexorg]

The law is stupid, but it is the law. If your light can be converted, and properly match the correct pattern then that should be allowed - but it's not.

That means it's legal to have dangerously dim lights on high powered cars capable of 160mph, and illegal to upgrade the lights to modern standards.

OEM lights were supposed to have leveling and washers to stop issues of blinding or damaging anything, yet most new cars on the road with all this stuff (particularly mercedes and bmw) still blind you as new cars.

 

[mj2k]

Talking of verge view and Muntjacs etc. hopping out I gather the Australians had a big issue with driverless cars/technology/algorithms in that there is no progression and tracking possible when "skippy" leaps into the road from nowhere. Not much fun for either party. Us humans often get caught out not because we don't see them but because our reactions are too slow or there is nowhere to go or stop in time.

That's where having that little bit of peripheral vision from old-fashioned lights comes in useful - if you can see a brown thing moving in the dim light at the edge of the road you pay more attention to it, so your reactions are a bit faster if it does hop into the road to stare dumbly at you (or better still, slow down a bit before you get to it, just in case).

Full sized deer are the biggest (wildlife) car killer in the UK (know a few who have had that, and saw a 4x4 totaled by a suicidally charging stag) though Muntjacs are more stupid and cause quite a bit of front end damage. Wombats seem to be the biggest offender in Australia, and Elks in the nordic states of course (hence the 'Elk test'). Wouldn't have thought they'd be any more tricky for driverless cars to handle than a toddler rushing into the road though, I guess if they can't handle them it points to the tech still having some way to go before being 100% safe.

 

[AndyRKett]

Don't take my word for it, do a google for mini led headlight aim and you'll find plenty of posts...



Not so likely on a brand new car unless it's been set up badly, so maybe your issue was simply that nobody was used to it like you said, or it wasn't quite set up right out of the box.

I can google it all day long there is no “common” problem, you’ll find all sorts of posts about older cars and failed self levelling systems or different mini models most of which pre-date the LED headlights. This was not a self levelling issue, neither was it a set up issue, and to assume these other posts have anything to do with the 2017+ countryman is like saying all Fiat 500’s have head gasket issues because some older mk2 puntos used to frequently pop theirs.

There were two things going on 1 being the height of the headlights on the ‘new’ countryman back in 2017 it was a big car and the lights sit very high. The second issue is they were a new technology at that time very few cars had LED Headlights and those that did were smaller (lower) minis and maybe some BMWs, they were very new and very few and far between.

So 1 the lights where exceptionally bright compared to what people where used to and 2 they were high up on the bonnet so even adjusted properly (and they were checked and checked again) they shone down on cars coming the other way.

Once the dealer tweeked them down (despite the alignment being fine) the problem of people full beaming and flashing went away (mostly) and since then it has disappeared completely as people have now gotten used to these lights on cars.

The issue was people being not used to the brightness of the new technology, (and the massive distance that the new lights would throw the light)

It wasn’t a discussion of anything being wrong with the lights, it was a comment on not flashing your lights or Main beaming someone just because you perceive their lights to be bright.
Modern cars have very bright lights especially LEDs and if I main beam you back you’ll soon see the difference, the LEDs are nothing like bulbs or HIDs there is no singular light source and they are made up of a chip if multiple high powered LEDs turning on and off the LEDs depending on where you want the light to be.

One advantage of these lights is there are no left or right hand drive versions as they are suitable to use in both as they don’t have a upsweep in the beam pattern to light up tall road signs like an old car would. They’re so bright they don’t really need this and this is why oncoming drivers think you have your main beams on.

 

[mj2k]

There were two things going on 1 being the height of the headlights on the ‘new’ countryman back in 2017 it was a big car and the lights sit very high. The second issue is they were a new technology at that time very few cars had LED Headlights and those that did were smaller (lower) minis and maybe some BMWs, they were very new and very few and far between.

So 1 the lights where exceptionally bright compared to what people where used to and 2 they were high up on the bonnet so even adjusted properly (and they were checked and checked again) they shone down on cars coming the other way.

Hm, doesn't sound like a terribly good bit of design if the lights are v bright, directional and high up, not least because they'd have to be quite sharply angled downwards to give a proper beam pattern on a normal road...

Quite surprised there hasn't been some sort of guidance / directive on that, like there was for indicator lights being too high back in the 90s (which is why S1a Discoveries have indicators in the bumper, rather than where you'd expect them to be):

I'm totally with you on the LEDs being a massive improvement over HIDs - they respond much quicker to undulations in the road meaning they're actually reacting to an event as it happens rather than 0.5 seconds later. But I think the self-levelling technology is still playing catch-up; laser-based levelling will give an equally fast response and can be 'intelligent' too, but many still rely on that arm and potentiometer arrangement.

 

[vexorg]

Self leveling has been about for 20+ years on lights. A sensor on the rear suspension has been the usual way.

And dont get what you mean about the HID, what do they need to react to within 0.5 second?
Not fiat, but mine are great on any road, directional too.

 

[mj2k]

Self leveling has been about for 20+ years on lights. A sensor on the rear suspension has been the usual way.

And dont get what you mean about the HID, what do they need to react to within 0.5 second?
Not fiat, but mine are great on any road, directional too.

Road undulations. If the car goes into a dip the HIDs' motor starts to wind it up, but if you then immediately hit a bump the HID is still going upwards so your headlights are pointing at the sky. Hence the usual thing you see of HIDs flickering all over the place as a HID-equipped car approaches you down a straight but bumpy road.

Oh, and the 'sunrise effect' you see with HIDs or LEDs when a car's coming up a hill in a slight mist, looking like the halo from a main beam. Instinctively that has anyone reaching for the 'main beam' lever 'til the car reaches the apex and you find out they're on dipped beams after all. No idea if laser guiding fixes that, but no reason it shouldn't be able to if it doesn't already.

Edit: all of this doesn't matter one jot if one does most of one's driving either on motorways / dual carriageways or well-lit urban areas; most cars have dippable rear view mirrors and the oncoming traffic's too far away for any major dazzling effect to occur so pretty much the more powerful the better, and in well lit urban areas a mouse holding a tealight would do just as well as a WW2 searchlight so it doesn't really matter what sort of headlights you have, as long as they make some light for other cars / pedestrians to see, and don't blind them or give them sunburn. It's only on dark, bumpy, windy single carriageways where things seriously start to come unstuck, just when you need good headlights the most.

Like this little gem (really love this road):