Technical Intermittent Starting Problem

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Technical Intermittent Starting Problem

derekos82

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Mar 31, 2011
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Hello
this is becoming a very stressful and annoying ownership.
Ok first things first
Car is Punto 1997 85 16v

Problem: Car randomly won't start (wont turn over)
Problem: Been to mechanics 3 times and problem still exists
Problem: By the time I have got it to the mechanic, everytime, it's started, so a mechanic has never actually seen the problem

First time, mechanic said spark plugs needed to be changed but other than that they didnt see what the problem was

Second time, costing £200, the mechanic said the HT leads were in a bad way and that was the problem.One week later the car wouldnt start again.

Third time, like others, as soon as the car got to the garage it started. They gave it a thorough look and came up with no answer, they did speculate something about the ignition barrel housing (a piece came away in his hand), but i didnt authorise the work as to be honest I lost faith with these guys as they had assured me it was the HT leads and 7 days later it doesnt start again

What the garage assure me, it is NOT the immobiliser, starter motor or battery

Fourth time, as in yesterday it wouldnt start at 6pm or again when I tryed at midnight.
But at 9am it started, not straight away but it was at least turning over
Please see the videos as words dont seem to describe the problem enough , spent £300 plus and problem still exists

Someone else must have/or had this problem. It's pointless bringing to a garage now as they will only speculate again.

Videos can be viewed here

http://www.youtube.com/my_videos?feature=mhee

Thanks
 
Any car that will not turn over on the starter has a starter or battery problem. I really cant see why changing the plugs is going to fix that.

Make sure battery earth is clean & tight at all connections and the battery is in good condition. Next time it refuses to start use jump leads from another car. If that works you have a bad battery. If it does not you need a new starter motor. If your engine turns faster with your battery disconnected it suggests the battery is faulty internally and absorbing power.

If the engine spins over but will not fire it could be the immobiliser. Make sure you have the original key not a copy and check all connections under the steering column covers.
Another option is the crank sensor. If that is not signalling, the ECU will not fire any sparks or supply fuel.
 
Look at the advice above... do you REALLY MEAN it wont turn over... or do you mean it wont tick over...? Important...
 
Sorry I don't know the difference between turn over and tick over that's why I've included videos. What do you reckon?

The car started this morning and is running fine. Problem just randomly occurs.

The battery is new, I'll check connections.
I don't have the master key but the Fiat garage say if it was immobiliser the code light would stay on. They also said it's not the starter as it started for them every bloody time. It's only myself and roadside assistance who've seen it in broken down mode. 3rd time by the time we got it on the truck and got to fiat it was running again (10min) journey

It's so frustrating.

If you see on the bids, in the broken down state the fuel injection light sometimes flashes and sometimes doesn't.
When running it comes on solid for two seconds then goes off

Could this mean something?
 
Well... yes it means something but you need to get the stored error codes read...
Turn over is what the engine does when you first turn the key...
Tick over is what the engine does once you have turned the key & the engine has fired up / started & you dont rev it...it just hums along

Hope that helps...
 
New battery and good earth cable connections (check them) rules out the battery etc. So its down to the starter motor. It does start and they rarely ever get intermittent problems. So its down to the engine. I would suspect the crank sensor as they can be faulty one day and seemingly ok the next. They can be worse when the engine is hot.

New crank sensor
 
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thanks for all your suggestions so far
I was away the weekend and just got back and tried it.
Won't start again

so update:
Thursday 6pm - no start
Midnight - no start
Friday 9am- started
Sunday (with no driving in between): No start

It is turning over, from my understanding what turning over is. Starter motor is doing nothing
It is not firing or ticking over although there is a tick when i turn the key and a low murmur sound

if you have seen my video, the flashing of battery and oil light has stopped. They now just stay on and I get a clicking when I turn the key. Hopefully at 9am tomorrow it wont start and a mechanic can see it but in case it cant

I think this info might help you guys eliminate some things for me
When it didnt start very first time, months ago - we tried to jump start with leads no go
On advice I bought a new battery

Second time, road side assistance towed me, bump started got going but as soon as I stopped, it didnt start again

Third time, didnt try to bump as I wanted fiat to see it. started when we got there

roadside assistance everytime, firstly tried to jump start the battery - no go
checked all connections - all seems fine and tight, as for checking earths, could someone be more specific how i do that. Lights electric windows etc all operating
In conclusion, can I know elimanate the battery as the cause?

how would a crank sensor behave if it was broken? (anything, any indicators?)

thank you
 
*Turning over* mean the starter will spin the engine. Not turning over with just a click indicates weak battery. Prove it with jump leads.

Crank sensor can cause erratic starting or stopping for no apparent reason especially when hot.

The battery with internal fault can cause this.

Suggest you find a competent independent mechanic. Cheaper than Fiat and less likely to want you to *simply* replace the car.
 
it has been proved with jump leads, the road side assistance guy had his mega super dooper jump lead box and it got no response. the battery is under warranty.
and i bought it from a guy just around the corner. will i just try a new battery?
 
just tried to jump start there with leads, resulted in nothing
I am gonna try see an independent mechanic, however is it true only Fiat can operate the OBD II type thingy?

*you will also notice I am quite new to car ownership
this is my first car, had it 5 months = baptism of fire
 
you can read the fault codes your self if you have a laptop and the cable/software, can pick a cable up from ebay for about £20 and the software is free (i think), do you get any lights on the dash when trying to start? if so id be inclined to say starter motor rather than the battery, could also be a poor earth
 
yes if you check you tube video above you can see the lights flashing and hear the ticking

although today those once flicking lights now stay on and something ticks once and you just hear a murmur
 
That "murmur" could be the starter motor running but not engaging with the flywheel teeth.... that will cause the engine not to turn over AND it would cause start failure on a jump start. You say it starts with a bump start... so the ignition seems fine...

I vote starter motor duff.
 
cheers again Ffoxy

well just fingers crossed it stays not working for 9am so a mechanic can see it in this state

Update: it now no longer murmurs and has gone back to the ticking, i.e. like in the you tube videos posted. The "code2 light stayed on a bit longer

for what it's worth, and it's not much since i know damn all about cars, my gut feeling has been immobiliser
 
p.s. rough estimate on new starter motor and labour?
garage is local (seem genuine) but I have no clues on prices
 
3 local mechanics all busy until Thursday

2 mechanics saw the vid listened to my explanation and reckon starter motor
Third mechanic listened to story said starter motor then when he saw/heard the clicking and when i explained the clicking happens in the MAR position, he thinks it is most likely something else

clicking noise is coming from that black relay box above the engine
i unscrewed it checked all the connections and they are all tight

any more thoughts?

would love to fix this myself
 
p.s. dont know if this counts but for some reason my radio has lost its presets and the time is wrong

that is the first time i have seen that
 
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