Oh no! Ibiza Armageddon! stranded in North Devon! More to come on this later today, once I've calmed down a bit!
Ibiza Armageddon
- Thread starter Pugglt Auld Jock
- Start date
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Ibiza Armageddon
Oh dear guess you've broken down hopefully somewhere safe at least?
Must be something serious to stop you doing a temp bodge fix to get you moving again
OP
OP
'fraid so. Gearbox, to be specific the final drive, either crown wheel or pinion or possibly both bearings, are "toast" Managed to make it to Croyde Motors Seat agents before it actually ground (grind being the operative word) to a stop so luckily have been able to stay with Mrs J's sister otherwise we'd have had accommodation costs too.
More info to come when I'm feeling up to telling you all - bit depressed just now!
OP
OP
Thanks Jack.
Oh dear.
Always pick the worst moment..it's never when you're just nipping to the shop.
Good luck, and make sure to give Seat UK a bell, it's far too young for a drivetrain to be considered reasonable wear and tear regardless of warranty (seem to recall it's barely over 30k?). It may be you can extract a goodwill contribution.
Always pick the worst moment..it's never when you're just nipping to the shop.
Good luck, and make sure to give Seat UK a bell, it's far too young for a drivetrain to be considered reasonable wear and tear regardless of warranty (seem to recall it's barely over 30k?). It may be you can extract a goodwill contribution.
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Couldn't agree more Steven. Now in it's seventh year but with just under 30,000 miles behind it, shouldn't have been anywhere near failing. It's never been subjected to any harsh treatment either and I know that because I'm pretty much the exclusive driver - Mrs J much prefers the Panda.
I'll be posting a more detailed story about this in a wee while (I've calmed down a bit now) and I actually got the car back, with new gearbox, last night. All seems well, the cost was pretty eye watering but the dealer - Croyde Motors Seat Dealers: https://www.croydemotors.co.uk/ has been absolutely wonderful and I would recommend them without reservation. I immediately asked about a contribution when I left the car with them the Thursday before Easter. Of course they couldn't look at the car until after the holiday but got back to me on the Wednesday to confirm that the gearbox was "toast" and that they were intervening on my behalf with SEAT. The outcome is that I've been given a third off the total price of the whole job. I'm gutted that this has happened and the expense - could have had a nice wee holiday on what this has cost - but, considering she's well out of warranty (3 years, I didn't pay to extend it) I think they haven't treated me too badly? Two year warranty on the new gearbox. Funds are going to take a while to bounce back from this one though!
I'd have argued the toss for a bit more..on the basis there's no service schedule for the gearbox so even if you're outside of the dealer network they can't argue service hasn't been done to spec. Also the miles are very low indeed, it's actually done less than ours. Although I may be the only person on record to have ever got money out of Citroën for none-warranty work...
However no reflection on the dealer it's likely been through a matrix of Vehicle age, mileage, history, etc at head quarters and the end result would have been 33% which you've been offered.
However no reflection on the dealer it's likely been through a matrix of Vehicle age, mileage, history, etc at head quarters and the end result would have been 33% which you've been offered.
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Buggerations!
Did they say exactly what had failed other then the gearbox?
Would love a nosey of the Insides
But then again I suppose they will want to set the full unit off for refurb to the supplier
Would love a nosey of the Insides
But then again I suppose they will want to set the full unit off for refurb to the supplier
OP
OP
Me too chris. I asked but they said the damage was so easily diagnosed there was no need to dismantle anything. They'd do it if I paid the labour but I opted not to. Apparently the gearbox oil looked like some sort of glitter paint what with all the finely ground up swarf! From the noise and the fact that it was completely vehicle speed related it has to be something to do with crown wheel, pinion or the associated bearings. My bet would be on the crown wheel and it's probably been chewing into the casing if there's a lot of "glitter" in the oil? Anyway, as you say, it's going back to the factory in exchange for the replacement - which is itself a factory rebuilt unit.
Having thought on it..33% is rather low.
Are they saying you got 66% of the reasonable service life of a gearbox and they expect them to last 45k? Probably not..
Original warranty period was 60k miles, they don't stipulate any service in the life of the gearbox so they can't really say the age of the car and service is a factor. The fact they've paid at all means they accept your driving was not a factor.
Even at 7 years I'd have tried for 50% might not have got it...and I get that away from home getting the thing back on the road is the priority and you probably just want it over but may be worth a chat with Seat directly if the money is important.
Are they saying you got 66% of the reasonable service life of a gearbox and they expect them to last 45k? Probably not..
Original warranty period was 60k miles, they don't stipulate any service in the life of the gearbox so they can't really say the age of the car and service is a factor. The fact they've paid at all means they accept your driving was not a factor.
Even at 7 years I'd have tried for 50% might not have got it...and I get that away from home getting the thing back on the road is the priority and you probably just want it over but may be worth a chat with Seat directly if the money is important.
The thing is there is no right to assume entitlement to any contribution by the manufacturer of a car that is now 7 year olds, no matter how many miles it’s done.
While the owner might know how it’s been driven all that time the dealership don’t and it could have been horribly mistreated leading the premature failure.
As 1/3 had been offered and accepted you would not be in any position to go back and argue for more of a reduction at this point.
In essence it your gearbox died on a 7 year old car and they wouldn’t give any contribution at all, there would be no legal precedent to be able to sue the manufacturer, you’ve had 7 years of use out of the car and it is now over double it’s extended warranty period.
Manufacturers offer a contribution because 1. They massively over charge in main dealerships anyway and 2. The discount might prevent you ranting and raving online or to your friends about what terrible cars they are. They’re not really out of pocket and they won’t do any sort of discount that does leave them out of pocket.
I get they will do anything to avoid paying but..
That fault will have been there day 1 it'll be poor QA.
If Jock did an average mileage it would have failed before the car was 3.
So I absolutely would have asked the question as the saying goes "Shy Bairns get nowt".
That fault will have been there day 1 it'll be poor QA.
If Jock did an average mileage it would have failed before the car was 3.
So I absolutely would have asked the question as the saying goes "Shy Bairns get nowt".
A surprising failure, and a reasonable contribution.
I'm not aware of VW gearboxes being weak, not heard any nasty stories.
A VW gearbox was used on the Maestro and Montego 1.3 and 1.6, and was a nice unit, once the selection issues were sorted. Rover fitted the linkage, then undersealed the cars. Can anybody guess why the linkage was sometimes a little tight?
I attended the Rover training school and took one apart and rebuilt it, probably around 1988, so my knowledge is not current, but it is likely they are much the same inside. Some of the gears are shrunk onto their shafts, requiring heating in an oil bath. Dealers were expected to buy an expensive oil bath, but many resisted. An ordinary chip fryer was fine, and seems to wirk with gear oil, although not suitable for chips afterwards. Most sat in the dealer unused.
Was there any signs of a leak? I doubt it, being Jock's, but the undertray might hide it well. I'd go with the earlier comment about it being faulty from new. Having spent many years dealing with warranty at a dealer, then moving to a large parts supplier to handle warranty from the other side, this level of contribution is about what I'd expect as a maximum. Often such contributions would be parts cost based only, so a third off the labour too is nice. Painful, but probably easier than rebuilding it at home. And a bonus, a longer holiday in Devon, with the wind howling and the rain coming sideways. (Sorry Jock)
My Fabia is currently on 54k, so I'll keep my fingers crossed. No nasty noises. That'll jinx it.
I'm not aware of VW gearboxes being weak, not heard any nasty stories.
A VW gearbox was used on the Maestro and Montego 1.3 and 1.6, and was a nice unit, once the selection issues were sorted. Rover fitted the linkage, then undersealed the cars. Can anybody guess why the linkage was sometimes a little tight?
I attended the Rover training school and took one apart and rebuilt it, probably around 1988, so my knowledge is not current, but it is likely they are much the same inside. Some of the gears are shrunk onto their shafts, requiring heating in an oil bath. Dealers were expected to buy an expensive oil bath, but many resisted. An ordinary chip fryer was fine, and seems to wirk with gear oil, although not suitable for chips afterwards. Most sat in the dealer unused.
Was there any signs of a leak? I doubt it, being Jock's, but the undertray might hide it well. I'd go with the earlier comment about it being faulty from new. Having spent many years dealing with warranty at a dealer, then moving to a large parts supplier to handle warranty from the other side, this level of contribution is about what I'd expect as a maximum. Often such contributions would be parts cost based only, so a third off the labour too is nice. Painful, but probably easier than rebuilding it at home. And a bonus, a longer holiday in Devon, with the wind howling and the rain coming sideways. (Sorry Jock)
My Fabia is currently on 54k, so I'll keep my fingers crossed. No nasty noises. That'll jinx it.
I would say the reason I'm saying this is last year I had a very similar conversation with a service manager of a dealership.
He laid out exactly why the fault with the car was not covered as the fault was "actually" a maintenance item so even if the the manufacturer warranty was still live (expired 2 years previous) it wouldn't be covered. He'd dealt with 3 of these this week they never get paid for...this is the TSB.
So I drafted a nice email to Citroën explaining I was deeply unsatisfied with their substandard product, and that they expected me to foot the bill for a design fault that their representative has told me is common and they are definitely aware of an issue as it subject to a service bulletin. As a result if they wished to ever see any money from me again I would like some assistance.
A follow up phone call, later the service manager got a phone call from Citroën UK to confirm I wasn't lying out my arse and a 70% was agreed for something that no warranty will cover ever.
It may be a waste of time...but if you don't do it you don't know. Not saying go in all guns blazing and scream and shout the place down but a quiet word with head office might help or you might be told ever so nicely to do one.
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All good stuff chaps. You both make good points here. I think the offer is not particularly generous, although a hell of a lot better than nothing and I think that, having accepted their offer by settling the bill it's largely done and dusted now. However I think I might just write to them expressing my displeasure, if not disgust, at the box failing at such a low mileage and slip in reference to the fact that I'm a trained and qualified motor mechanic so should have at least some idea how to drive a vehicle without wrecking it! Probably the best I can expect will be a nice letter of apology and commiseration but I might get a wee surprise? Won't be holding my breath though.
'Morning PB. I remember the Maestro/Montego very well. Never stripped a box as the boss preferred to send them to our local specialist who was very good at what he did. We never got comebacks but I think the boss also liked that any warranty costs would not be with him! Sister in law, where we are just now, had a Montego estate for many years and loved it dearly. I found it a pleasant car to drive, nicer actually than the big V6 petrol Rover estate she eventually replaced it with - She now has a Landrover Freelander which is great fun driving round the lanes down here in, as I've been doing whilst the Ibiza's been in the workshop. People don't tend to "argue" with the Land Rover! and, if you need to do a bit of "soft roading" up the verges to get by, it doesn't even blink an eye!
I believe the 5 speed box in mine has an unusual (to me anyway) "cassetted" bearing cluster on the end of the two main shafts and I've seen a number of adverts to supply kits for them. I believe the application in the wee Up, Citogo, etc is known to be weak. I think this is such a kit: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/183283094305. However the chap I know at home, who owns the local VAG independent and is himself an Audi trained master tech, tells me that my model of Ibiza is quite well known for doing in front wheel bearings but they don't know of a single gearbox problem on one - they shortly will be disabused of that!
I've not had to use a chip fryer in that way, but I used to boil up thermostats in our electric kettle. Mrs J would question the dark reddish brown ring around the inside but I used to tell her it was due to the peat in our good scottish water! Think she believed me? I'm not against putting bearings in the freezer and castings in the oven when fitting stuff like wheel bearings and the like!
Oil leaks, no. I was actually very pleased that there was not even the slightest hint of an oil leak from either engine or gearbox. Looked more like the bottom of a Japanese car (I very seldom have seen oil leaks on stuff like Hondas and Mazdas). Also the car - Ibiza - unlike my old Cordoba which had a massive undertray, has only a vestigial one under the front bumper. Just big enough to interfere with changing the oil filter but not really big enough to make much difference to the sump or gearbox. I suspect it's more to do with aerodynamics than protection of components. By the way the old box always "clonked" (quietly, but you could definitely hear it) on upward changes just as the clutch took up the drive or, if you'd reversed and then put it in first, just as the drive was taken up there was always a slight but audible "clonk" Mrs J couldn't hear it no matter how hard I tried to describe it to her. I reported it at each of the 3 services at the main dealer when she was in warranty but was always told it was "normal" I disagreed, but got nowhere. admittedly it didn't change in nature or get any louder, just this soft "Clonk". I now, with the benefit of hindsight, wish I'd recorded this by way of a written letter each time, but, hay ho, I didn't. The new, factory rebuilt actually, 'box doesn't clonk so that seems to pretty much support my theory that it's been a "bad un" from the get go. The new box though does have a very, very slight whine on over run in second gear. Of course I'm ultra sensitive and "jumpy" to all this sort of thing now and I think it's probably me being very over sensitive. The box has a 24 month full warranty with unlimited mileage restriction so I'm going to keep an ear tuned to this and we'll see how it is when we get home. Traveling tomorrow so anyway it's too late to go back and let the dealer have a listen. I know he'd tell me to let it settle down anyway and the noise is so slight it's exactly what I'd be saying if a customer had come in to us with it.
Having picked the car up late on Thursday and just driving a few miles back to sister in law's, I decided we should use it as much as possible yesterday to get a few miles on it in local driving - so reasonable speeds and lots of gear changing - to bed it in a bit before we hit the motorway this weekend. Took sister in law for her covid jag, then on to a local fish and chips cafe - the Pelican - for lunch and on out to Atlantic Village so the girls could have a bit of retail therapy - massive yawn! - but I did get a bargain on a new pair of trainers! The car is now relatively so quiet I can actually hear a slight amount of tyre tread noise again. These new Falkens - been on for about a year now - definitely have a slightly "town and country" thrum to them (remember the old Firestone Town and country tyres)? I'm very pleased with the way they grip and how the car handles on them, but they are definitely considerably more noisy than the original fit Bridgestones they replaced. Not sure if I'd go for them again. They are absolutely fine for local low speed journeys, but you do hear them, and hear more transmitted road noise, at higher speeds.
I can't find words to describe how impressed I am with all at Croyde Motors. The two people I dealt with on the workshop side just couldn't have been more helpful and it was their intervention which secured the price reduction. I now believe it was the garage manager himself who made us the great offer to swap the Ibiza for a brand new Arona they had in the showroom. They made a very good offer for the Ibiza and then offered a further £2000 brand loyalty reduction if I wanted to do the deal. It would have still been a very expensive way of curing the problem but would have allowed us to return home immediately. with all our luggage, if we hadn't been able to stay with Mrs J's sister. The luggage, kitchen sink included if you married men know what I mean? would have made train travel a non starter.
Edit. Oh, and by the way, I was allowed to go into the workshop and thank the chap who did the job when I picked the car up. Not many will allow that! The "Techie" was of just as pleasant disposition as the two in reception.- and I left a Scottish £10 note for him with the reception on the way out - I didn't want to embarrass him in the workshop. Wonder what he made of the note? I warned them that if he didn't want to keep it as a souvenir he might need to exchange it at a bank for an English note.
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Customers do not know the structure of any company. The department dealing with out of warranty issues coould be called any of these: 'warranty', 'service', 'customer service', 'aftersales', or one of several more options. A letter addressed to a department that does not exist, might find its way to the correct person, or might not. Of course, there might be reference in the handbook, or on a website.
A letter to the Managing Director will normally be redirected quickly.
The company I worked for had a tendency to treat letters passed from the MD as more urgent or more important than others, and gave them better treatment. Mostly, the MD had not seen the letter, only the secretary.
A trick I've seen a few times, and once used myself, is this.
Create a letter addressed to the 'warranty' or 'customer service' department, dated a day or two after the problem occurred, or was resolved. Don't post it.
Wait a fortnight.
Write a new letter, addressed to the MD, with a copy of your 'earlier' letter, asking for consideration, and expressing, politely, your disappointment at not having received any acknowledgement or reply to your earlier request.
Sit back, and hope the relevant department gives a better response than might have been given otherwise, as they panic about having lost your original communication, or fear reprisals from the MD's office for not treating customers properly.
Worst case scenario, you get no more than already offered.
Don't send the original letter as an email attachment, as it may contain details of when created, which can catch you out.
A letter to the Managing Director will normally be redirected quickly.
The company I worked for had a tendency to treat letters passed from the MD as more urgent or more important than others, and gave them better treatment. Mostly, the MD had not seen the letter, only the secretary.
A trick I've seen a few times, and once used myself, is this.
Create a letter addressed to the 'warranty' or 'customer service' department, dated a day or two after the problem occurred, or was resolved. Don't post it.
Wait a fortnight.
Write a new letter, addressed to the MD, with a copy of your 'earlier' letter, asking for consideration, and expressing, politely, your disappointment at not having received any acknowledgement or reply to your earlier request.
Sit back, and hope the relevant department gives a better response than might have been given otherwise, as they panic about having lost your original communication, or fear reprisals from the MD's office for not treating customers properly.
Worst case scenario, you get no more than already offered.
Don't send the original letter as an email attachment, as it may contain details of when created, which can catch you out.
@Pugglt Auld Jock The reported clonk might well be significant. The garage should have recorded it on their jobsheet for the mechanic to assess. That should be a record, reported under warranty. Hopefully on their computer, but may only be on physical jobsheet, hiding in an archive store somewhere.
If you're minded to write to SEAT, the actual dates of the services that the noise was reported on could be good ammunition. SEAT could, if they wished, prod the dealer for more details, and demand why the noise was not diagnosed.
Don't think mine clonks. Occasionally refuses to select reverse, and very occasionally tries to resist coming out again, but mostly fine, and very light to use.
If you're minded to write to SEAT, the actual dates of the services that the noise was reported on could be good ammunition. SEAT could, if they wished, prod the dealer for more details, and demand why the noise was not diagnosed.
Don't think mine clonks. Occasionally refuses to select reverse, and very occasionally tries to resist coming out again, but mostly fine, and very light to use.
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