i hate i hate big people carriers

[custard]

personally i think the lets all hate stu thread would have been less trouble

 

[CheeseMaster]

I'm expecting another blood vessel blown reply coming my way soon and probably a few more insults to add to the fun.

 

[Alex B]

personally i think the lets all hate stu thread would have been less trouble

lol this is gona get ugly

 

[custard]

lol this is gona get ugly

what stu? ahhh thats more like it

 

[CheeseMaster]

Not on my behalf it isn't, I've got to go out....

 

[The Trooper]

This guy gives a good argument, and to round off a very good conclusion on Baby On Board Stickers.

 

[poggy]

Dear Mr Cheesemaster,

Fear not, I am not even close to bursting a blood vessel. I was just pointing out that your post was a simplistic view of MPV's and not based on a lot of fact.

I have an MPV but the kids are not at school yet, so my MPV is not used on a school run. Using your logic they obviously are all used for the school run, but they are not, am I allowed to have one now. My kids will go to a local school, which is about 5 minutes walk away and they will walk. One of our friends has a MPV and motorbike, so there is one who doesn't have two cars. Just because I know this person I am not saying other people don't have two cars, but you seem so sure the majority do.

If you look at the school run, it doesn't matter whether you drive a car, MPV, lorry or 4x4 they are all pushing not just the 4x4's or MPV's. The traffic calming measures around schools need to be sorted out, not the type of car used. The traffic patrol lady recently quit at the local school because of the amount of abuse she got from drivers when she took the kids across the road. These were not people dropping off kids, but other motorists. I used to walk to school, but things are a lot more dangerous on the road now and I can appreciate that parents don't always feel comfortable letting there kids walk to school having to cross busy roads.

I still don't understand your comment about size, your now saying that a mondeo is too big for the school run because it is the same size as a Ulysse, so it's not just MPV's or 4x4's. What is your preferred size for the school run vehicle.

I presume you take the bus or train to work as you feel that taking the car is an idulgence. Many parents drop there kids off on the way to work.

A Fiat Ulysse starts at the same price as a standard family car, so if took 10% of the money saved you wouldn't get much I am afraid.

I suggest you look at braking distance tests for cars and revise your comment about all heavier cars taking longer to stop, it's not true. Also the Renault Espace has 2 stars for pedestrian safety, so it is better than a lot of cars and this is the same test applied to both vehicles. It also about the technology of the car, if it has emergency assistance etc.

I agree you didn't mention my wife or Stu's, but I only asked if you were saying that with your general comment about MPV drivers (read my comment again). You have to be very careful about lumping people into categories. I don't have a baby on board sticker, but if you want to talk about maturity saying all MPV's with a Baby on Board sticker must have the baby at the wheel is a highly mature comment. By the way Stu had a Baby on Board sticker so you must have been referring to people like him driving MPV's.

MPV's with sliding doors are safer to enter and exit and my comment about whether you have kids was to find out if you know the practicalities of transporting kids, that was all. If you haven't then you may not know some of the problems there are.

I have seen plenty of cars pull stupid stunts with and without a Baby on Board sticker, so how is the sticker relevant. Are you saying you haven't seen cars without a Baby on Board sticker ever pull a stupid driving stunt. This is the type of comment, which I think is not well founded.

Finally it is a Dual Fuel vehicle which now produces less CO2 than many small cars and far less particulate pollutants. Again you can't lump all MPV's together.


As regards maturity, which part of my argument was not mature, please enlighten me as it all looked reasonably argued.

 

[poggy]

I'm expecting another blood vessel blown reply coming my way soon and probably a few more insults to add to the fun.

Sorry it was not my intention to insult you, but I think you did that quite well to anybody who has a Baby on Board sticker.

 

[CheeseMaster]

Dear Mr Cheesemaster,

Fear not, I am not even close to bursting a blood vessel but I appreciate your concern. I was just pointing out that your post was a simplistic view of MPV's and not based on a lot of fact.

I know what you were saying, and you are deliberately taking a single figure and misusing it.

I have an MPV but the kids are not at school yet, so my MPV is not used on a school run. Using your logic they obviously are all used for the school run,

Not something I said.

but they are not, am I allowed to have one now.

Not something I said. See below:

CheeseMaster wrote:
"Please. Some might need these tanks but..."

My kids will go to a local school, which is about 5 minutes walk away and they will walk. One of our friends has a MPV and motorbike, so there is one who doesn't have two cars. Just because I know this person I am not saying other people don't have two cars, but you seem so sure the majority do.

I base it on a survey of the close knit neighbourhood where I spent 10 years in Hampshire. They are very representative. You see I'm not just from one area - I know many areas of the United Kingdom well enough to have seen the same patterns and the same levels of ownership amongst friends of my family and friends of my friends.

If you look at the school run, it doesn't matter whether you drive a car, MPV, lorry or 4x4 they are all pushing not just the 4x4's or MPV's.

Quite, but I pointed out specific incidences also that you haven't addressed and I also said that 9 years worth of having to drive through the same school run the aggressiveness of the School Run Parent In MPV/4x4 far far outweighed any other.

The traffic calming measures around schools need to be sorted out, not the type of car used.

No. I disagree with you there. The traffic calming measures need to be sorted out, and a whole group of arrogant self centered parents need to start to car pool or fund a minibus. That is before we get to the MPV/4x4 brigade. I would say if you have a choice between an MPV and a normal sized car for the school run take the normal sized/smaller car. If you don't, then car pool.

The traffic patrol lady recently quit at the local school because of the amount of abuse she got from drivers when she took the kids across the road.

That I have heard of before happenning elsewhere. It's a symptom of the sick, arrogant self centered society that England is becoming. However, you can't make changes to them can you? But parents on the school run CAN group together and help to PROTECT their kids by car pooling, minibusses or alternating MPV use. Oh and not leaving it too late to drop the kids off at school ( and therefore not getting into a panic behind the wheel and doing stupid things ) in good time. I saw it every day, not a day would go past when my heart wouldn't go "eeek" at some bit of MPV/4x4 driver cretinousness and sometimes ( but far less ) other parent driver cretinous on the school run.

These were not people dropping off kids, but other motorists.

Oh come on. So not one parent of any child on a school run ( either to that school or another ) was behind one of these incidents?

I used to walk to school, but things are a lot more dangerous on the road now and I can appreciate that parents don't always feel comfortable letting there kids walk to school having to cross busy roads.

Quite and who adds to those busy roads at peak times with nasty noxious fumes when they are otherwise so paranoid about child health? Where does the start stop dangerous traffic come from?

Thats why I pointed out school busses. You know we used to have to line up in the school premises and wait for all the busses to finish their manouvers. Then we would get on ( line by line ). Then we would get dropped off at various stopping points.

I still don't understand your comment about size, your now saying that a mondeo is too big for the school run because it is the same size as a Ulysse, so it's not just MPV's or 4x4's. What is your preferred size if school run vehicle.

Please don't play chop logic games with me. I made my position clear on the matter and said what my preferred solution was.

I presume you take the bus or train to work as you feel that taking the car is an idulgence. Many parents drop there kids off on the way to work.

I said that MPVing 2.2 kids to school each day and jostling for position on a road crowded with other MPVs and kids was an indulgence.

*edit starts, forgot to address the point.
Right now I work from home as a freelancer, but I used to car pool as I already said. As I had the most fuel efficient car and am an "advanced" motorist ( don't get me started on that ) I got to be driver. Sitting stuck in traffic outside schools gives you plenty of time to observe idiocy.

A Fiat Ulysse starts at the same price as a standard family car, so if took 10% of the money saved you wouldn't get much I am afraid.

Goodness gracious me. Please do the courtesy of reading my responses through before you reply will you? I'm losing the will to reply here . 10% of a Ulysse price per parent over 30 childrens worth of parents would pay for a much safer alternative. Hell, councils used to pay for it, then we all voted conservative and that had to stop.

I suggest you look at braking distance tests for cars and revise your comment about all heavier cars taking longer to stop, it's not true.

Yet again, something I never said. I said a heavier vehicle has more momentum. Look up momentum and see my comments about pancakes.

Also the Renault Espace has 2 stars for pedestrian safety, so it is better than a lot of cars and this is the same test applied to both vehicles. It also about the technology of the car, if it has emergency assistance etc.

Emergancy assistance wont help you if a child is in your deadzones/blindspots. Ask yourself whether that pedestrian safety covers reversing into children that you can't see.

I agree you didn't mention my wife or Stu's, but I only asked if you were saying that with your general comment about MPV drivers (read my comment again).

What have you edited it again? . I quoted what you said, but you didn't read my comment properly if you even have to ask whether or not I was being universally inclusive or not. * edited for poor sentence construction.

I quoted a relevant part of it above if you want to read it again, or you can look at comment 52.

I don't have a baby on board sticker, but if you want to talk about maturity saying all MPV's with a Baby on Board sticker must have the baby at the wheel is a highly mature comment.

Firstly you brought up maturity, not me. Secondly I made the comment here:

"Baby on board? Yeah, in the driving seat."

which was clearly flippant.

However, I'm prepared to back that comment up and question the level of arrogance and maturity of anyone who has one of those dangling up in their rear windscreen or stuck to it. If it was about "accident safety" and not being a "mind my child" arrogant then it would be stuck to both of the SIDE windows and not in a position where a rear ender will make it invisible or rolling the car meaning it will flop down on the ceiling.

By the way Stu had a Baby on Board sticker so you must have been referring to people like him driving MPV's.

What, you looking for him to leap to your defence? I'm sure he will, but so what? If it makes you and him ask a question about what he is really doing with that sticker, or question the rationale behind the choice in vehicle to even a tiny amount then as far as I am concerned, job done.

Yet again though, we are back to the start aren't we? I clearly used words like "minority" and "majority" and identified the school run with 2.2 children as being a major example of where an MPV is innappropriate.

MPV's with sliding doors are safer to enter and exit and my comment about whether you have kids was to find out if you know the practicalities of transporting kids, that was all. If you haven't then you may not know some of the problems there are.

As I said, some people "need" MPVs, but thats the whole point isn't it? However did people cope before MPVs had sliding doors? It must have been like the flintstones. However, I have transported children about and can understand the space issue. But doors do open on the side of cars, and I've found that kids have other problems with MPVs and sliding doors - like the tendancy to leave stuff in the way stopping other kids from making it to the sliding door in the first place. There are practical problems with MPV interiors for which sliding doors or opening doors make no difference. In fact, I think sliding doors are a good thing if only from the point of view of not having some idiot giving me yet another parking dent.

I have seen plenty of cars pull stupid stunts with and without a Baby on Board sticker, so how is the sticker relevant.

It is relevant because it is an appeal to other car drivers to be careful around the car ( admit it - it is ) and when its been driven poorly it is the ultimate in hypocrisy, don't you think?

Are you saying you haven't seen cars without a Baby on Board sticker ever pull a stupid driving stunt. This is the type of comment, which I think is not well founded.

Let me decode the negatives, I've already had to explain the hypocrisy to you so no need to repeat that. No, I'm clearly not saying that cars without baby on board stickers are perfect non aggressive drivers. Just the drivers aren't hypocrites when they do it. Fools, but not hypocrites. Equally I never said that ALL BoB drivers drive like maniacs.

As regards maturity, which part of my argument was not mature, please enlighten me as it all looked reasonably argued.

What did you edit out the use of expletives and the rudeness? Perhaps you are blind to your own faults, god knows we all are to a certain extent, but I have found your replies to mine in this thread like watching a boy racer pulling handbrake turns in a car with a "Baby On Board" sticker dangling around in the back window.

 

[CheeseMaster]

Sorry it was not my intention to insult you, but I think you did that quite well to anybody who has a Baby on Board sticker.

So calling me and my arguments immature, unresearched and "crap" wasn't meant to be an insult? I'd hate to be on the receiving end when you really mean it then.

 

[arseofbox]

Baby on Board sticker.

I dont give a flying ... yeah about MPVs, I just hate those placard things.

I dont drive any less sensibly or manically (as needed) with those buggers around, and showing one wont stop me or any other sensible motorist tailgating you for doing 60 in the middle lane of a motorway (if you cant overtake).

Same thing with compressed gas. By rights when Im carrying my SCUBA kit from here to there, if its full, I should display a Compressed Gas placard, same applies for any other compressed gas mind as its all pretty dangerous . Ive tried with and without and even if your showing one people still drive like dicks.

Not worth the effort.

 

[Alex B]

I dont give a flying ... yeah about MPVs, I just hate those placard things.

I dont drive any less sensibly or manically (as needed) with those buggers around, and showing one wont stop me or any other sensible motorist tailgating you for doing 60 in the middle lane of a motorway (if you cant overtake).

Same thing with compressed gas. By rights when Im carrying my SCUBA kit from here to there, if its full, I should display a Compressed Gas placard, same applies for any other compressed gas mind as its all pretty dangerous . Ive tried with and without and even if your showing one people still drive like dicks.

Not worth the effort.

i think half of the time people dont even know what the gas signs meen, my girlfriend certainly doesnt lol and they dont mention it in your test/theory. and im sure alot of drivers never even look at the highway code.

 

[bulldog5046]

well thats enough arguing, lets all goto the pub and get pissed

 

[poggy]

I think the majority of your arguments also apply to other vehicles, so just aiming them at MPV's & 4x4's is beyond me.

Quite and who adds to those busy roads at peak times with nasty noxious fumes when they are otherwise so paranoid about child health? Where does the start stop dangerous traffic come from?

It comes from a whole lot of groups in society, why pick on just the school run. In many families both parents have to work (they have to for financial reasons) and one has to take the car to school in order to get to work on time. You can't penalise those people.

Thats why I pointed out school busses. You know we used to have to line up in the school premises and wait for all the busses to finish their manouvers. Then we would get on ( line by line ). Then we would get dropped off at various stopping points. ?

If you lived in Hampshire you know it has many rural area's which are impossible to service effiectively with school buses. And elswhere the funding doesn't exist but this is not just the fault of people buying MPV's or 4x4's, it is anybody who does the schoold run, even the small car drivers.

Please don't play chop logic games with me. I made my position clear on the matter and said what my preferred solution was.

I am not playing games, your argument was aimed at MPV's, 4x4's etc if you meant large vehicles including cars why say MPV's & 4x4's. Sorry but you bought up the argument about the size of MPV's & 4x4's specifically.

Goodness gracious me. Please do the courtesy of reading my responses through before you reply will you? I'm losing the will to reply here . 10% of a Ulysse price per parent over 30 childrens worth of parents would pay for a much safer alternative. Hell, councils used to pay for it, then we all voted conservative and that had to stop.

I did read it and you said if you saved 10% wasted on MPV's and used it for buses etc. There is no difference between saving 10% on an average family saloon costing the same as a Ulysse or any other MPV. Sorry but what is the relevance of saving 10% of MPV's rather than 10% of family cars in general.

Yet again, something I never said. I said a heavier vehicle has more momentum. Look up momentum and see my comments about pancakes.

Momentum is generally described as the tendency of an object to continue to move in it's direction of travel. So the relevance is the ability to stop this tendency to keep moving, hence the braking ability and stopping distance. So I don't understand what your point was about momentum if you didn't mean the ability of a vehicle to stop (ie reduce it's momentum.)

Emergancy assistance wont help you if a child is in your deadzones/blindspots. Ask yourself whether that pedestrian safety covers reversing into children that you can't see.

Most serious injury accidents occur while driving down roads, so it will help. The Ulysse has the virtually the same side window height and rear window height as our Alfa. You can't just say MPV's are worse than cars for visibility, I agree some are but some aren't. If your worried about that then we should discuss visibility from vehicles in general. Why do you insist on just talking about MPV's & 4x4's

What have you edited it again? . I quoted what you said, but you didn't read my comment properly if you even have to ask whether or not I was being universally inclusive or not. * edited for poor sentence construction.

What did I edit, I said "Are you saying that my wife and stu's wife....". I didn't say "You said...". So I am afraid you didn't read it and it is exactly what you quoted me saying, nothing edited.

Firstly you brought up maturity, not me. Secondly I made the comment here:

"Baby on board? Yeah, in the driving seat."

which was clearly flippant.

To you it may be flippant, but ther is no doubt it is insulting.

However, I'm prepared to back that comment up and question the level of arrogance and maturity of anyone who has one of those dangling up in their rear windscreen or stuck to it. If it was about "accident safety" and not being a "mind my child" arrogant then it would be stuck to both of the SIDE windows and not in a position where a rear ender will make it invisible or rolling the car meaning it will flop down on the ceiling.

Sorry but your equally as arrogant to presume you know why people use these stickers. I personally don't use one because I know it makes no difference to people. But I know plenty of new parents and believe me their child is the most precious thing in the world to them. Anything and I mean anything which you think may help to make them safer you are prepared to try, even if in reality it does nothing.

What, you looking for him to leap to your defence? I'm sure he will, but so what? If it makes you and him ask a question about what he is really doing with that sticker, or question the rationale behind the choice in vehicle to even a tiny amount then as far as I am concerned, job done.

You amazing if you think that because you presume to know why people use these stickers or cars it's your job to make people question using them.
I don't need him to jump to my defence, I was pointing out your generalisation about these things is risky as you have no idea who your addressing. Do you know Stu enough to be able to comment about why he has or hasn't got a Baby on Board sticker. I do know him and believe me your arguments don't apply.

However did people cope before MPVs had sliding doors? It must have been like the flintstones. However, I have transported children about and can understand the space issue. But doors do open on the side of cars, and I've found that kids have other problems with MPVs and sliding doors - like the tendancy to leave stuff in the way stopping other kids from making it to the sliding door in the first place. There are practical problems with MPV interiors for which sliding doors or opening doors make no difference. In fact, I think sliding doors are a good thing if only from the point of view of not having some idiot giving me yet another parking dent.

We also did without car radio's, fuel injection, catalysts, seatbelts, airbags, ABS etc, you can't stop development.

It is relevant because it is an appeal to other car drivers to be careful around the car ( admit it - it is ) and when its been driven poorly it is the ultimate in hypocrisy, don't you think?


Let me decode the negatives, I've already had to explain the hypocrisy to you so no need to repeat that. No, I'm clearly not saying that cars without baby on board stickers are perfect non aggressive drivers. Just the drivers aren't hypocrites when they do it. Fools, but not hypocrites. Equally I never said that ALL BoB drivers drive like maniacs.

Sorry but you have no idea who is driving the car, they might not be the same person who drives with the kids in. Again you are generalising.

What did you edit out the use of expletives and the rudeness? Perhaps you are blind to your own faults, god knows we all are to a certain extent, but I have found your replies to mine in this thread like watching a boy racer pulling handbrake turns in a car with a "Baby On Board" sticker dangling around in the back window.

I didn't think crap was an expletive really. They are not immature arguments when related to your statements attacking the majority of MPV drivers. Sorry you've lost me with the comment about boy racer pulling a handbrake.

I do agree with a lot of what you say about the school run etc, but I don't agree with your attack on MPV's & 4x4's as if this will cure the problem. You may have the luxury of working from home, but many people are forced to commute to work and public transport is either too expensive or not reliable or available.

 

[poggy]

well thats enough arguing, lets all goto the pub and get pissed

We can get 7 of us in our MPV if you want

 

[poggy]

i think half of the time people dont even know what the gas signs meen, my girlfriend certainly doesnt lol and they dont mention it in your test/theory. and im sure alot of drivers never even look at the highway code.

We have 57 litres of LPG in the tank under the Ulysse and by law you don't need a sticker. I put one on anyway as apparently the fire brigade like to know if the car catches fire. I guess I can understand their concern.

 

[Stu DemonD]

Wow

I have just come back from a really tough audit over in Leamington, having a beer, about to order a chinese, and then started to read this....

Actually, I have only skimmed it as of now - one thing is certain, the BABY ON BOARD sticker we used to have was actually purchased when we had a Citreon ZX/Mondeo - not an MPV in sight. BUT we didn't use it on the Ulysse because it was unable to be read from the outside.

We purchased an MPV for one reason - we wanted to transport our 2 children in comfort, plus Jules could run it as a business vehicle for child-minding. So what if we bought an MPV? I could have easily purchased an estate, a 4x4, or whatever - but we decided the MPV fitted our needs. Peoples' tastes and needs are different, don't judge others because they don't suit yours

 

[poggy]

Wow

I have just come back from a really tough audit over in Leamington, having a beer, about to order a chinese, and then started to read this....

Actually, I have only skimmed it as of now - one thing is certain, the BABY ON BOARD sticker we used to have was actually purchased when we had a Citreon ZX/Mondeo - not an MPV in sight. BUT we didn't use it on the Ulysse because it was unable to be read from the outside.

We purchased an MPV for one reason - we wanted to transport our 2 children in comfort, plus Jules could run it as a business vehicle for child-minding. So what if we bought an MPV? I could have easily purchased an estate, a 4x4, or whatever - but we decided the MPV fitted our needs. Peoples' tastes and needs are different, don't judge others because they don't suit yours

You should be locked up then.

 

[Stu DemonD]

Ah, well as you know, mine is slightly tuned so then it becomes a street-sleeper which I can use to my advantage from the lights - and because it has dark-tinted windows, no sticker, no one knows whether I have 5 kids in the back, or just a baby in the driving seat

 

[Jai]

six kids? SIX KIDS!!! why not just just put your balls on display with the plaque: caution close proximity will cause pregnancy