How many kids?

Currently reading:
How many kids?

I've absolutely no problem with freedom of choice, nor with the State helping in cases of dire and exceptional misfortune.

However, being in an unhappy relationship is nothing to do with the government, nor should it be.

If child benefit only went to the first two children of married people there would be an incentive to get married, and stay married, which is the best environment for children and the best foundation for a well functioning society.

If people wanted to opt out of that arrangenment I wouldn't want to stop them; but they'd have broken a social contract (marriage) and consequently have lost out on the concomitant state assistance. This would have been their choice.

As for unhappy and abusive relationships. I know, they are common, but really it is up to people to manage their own lives and choices more carefully. The State cannot sort out all these personal problems. There is a pattern very often of women going from abusive relationship to abusive relationship. Sad but true, and another matter; but nothing to do with the government unless children are involved. These women should ask themselves a few questions. If benefits for kids were predicated on marriage then the number of single and dependent mothers would fall like a stone, to the wellbeing of all society.

We give money to young girls to have babies. They have babies. These babies become children and, to a far higher degree than for children in stable families, these children fail. At school; in personal relationships; in the workplace. This is fact sadly, and something the goverment is very concerned about. It is now the white children of single mothers who are the group doing worst academically. And yes, I know there are lots of exceptions, but I am talking here of the generality.

Kids need dads. I was pretty much brought up by a single mother but I went to a boys school and was taught my men, so I had lots of masculine input. Some boys today never see their father or any other decent male role model and get taught almost exclusively by women; and any male teachers are not even permitted to give them a ticking off if they are naughty. It's hard for the kids. I care most about the kids you see, grown-ups should be more responsible. A reformed benefits system would be one way of encouraging better parental responsibility.
 
Last edited:
Ok, so imagine this situation.

End up widowed after say 12 years of marriage, have one child from that happy marriage.

What happened if you re-married and wanted another child - god forbid you had twins - what happens then, get rid of one of them as you now have three? You cant plan multiple pregnancies (oh sorry your come back to that one will be - yes you can if you have hormone treatment) - i'm talking natural pregnancy.

You live in an ideal world, that is never goin to come true. You seem to tar everybody with the same brush.

As for basically if you get into a violent marriage you should have known that before you got married - you make me laugh - people change for all sorts of reasons.

Oh and the benefit rights has nothing to do with parental responsibility - parents should be responsible whatever, that has nothing to do with wealth or status.
 
Various possibilities here...

First of all, benefits are intended to help, not be the sole source of child support; so if they can afford another child, then have one. If your notional couple are afraid of having twins, they could take out insurance against it. Neighbours of ours did just this as they had a family history of twins, and when, two years later, they did in fact have twins they got a decent payout to help with the costs. Individual responsibility you see. Nothing to do with the government.

Why the assumption that the State is responsible for all support?

If, on the other hand, they can't afford insurance then they can't afford to have more kids - so don't have them.

Where's this ideal world I live in by the way? The world I inhabit is very far from ideal; I'd just like to see it a bit better.

Oh, and if people are in abusive relationships then they should get out. And not repeat the experience.
Nothing to do with black and white, just learnng from experience and using common sense, and showing some personal responsibility.
 
Ulpian said:
Why the assumption that the State is responsible for all support?

not assumption they have TV ads! You get what you are entitled to according to how much you earn. Its there to stop people living in poverty.

Its the way this country is. The basic concept is a good idea. But it can be abused. But by most people it isn't they need this money to survive.
Telling people to stop having children and that mistakes don't happen is ridiculous. Mistakes do happen and for some people like me abortion isn't an option. Every parent wants the best for their children and even if a young single mother claims benefits because she was knocked up at 16 doesn't mean she will be forever. I know people who were in that situation and have taken college courses and even gone on to uni. They have given back what they have taken 10 times over.
 
The Americans are turning their own dependency culture around - to the benefit of everybody. I am not talking healthcare by the way. Their's is crap.

In this country there is too much entitlement. We are one of the richest countries in the world with good free education and healthcare. Fantastic I say. So if people don't study hard and work that's their choice. Provision of indiscriminate funding only discourages the lazy and p:ROFLMAO:igate from taking care of themselves. Benefits should be targeted at the responsible, not go to the irresponsible and dishonest. This would teach the iresponsible to look after themselves more carefully. And they'd soon get the message.

As for being knocked up at sixteen. Well, whose fault would that have been I wonder? Not mine, so why should I have to pay? To that person I would say - don't put yourself in a position to be shagged by a worthless oik. More self respect; more responsibility:devil:
 
Your talking child benefits and taxes and ****, well the Yanks pay sod all tax and have no benefits, welfare is ridiculous there, just look at how many people live in poverty whilst others ponce around in supercars. Life doesn't work as everyone plans, it only takes one mistake to get pregnant, I mean if I got a lass pregnant I'd do my damned best to support the child and her, but would have to get a full time menial job at a supermarket and require benefits just to afford living, need a council house etc etc. There will always be people who play the system, in fact in some way most people play the system, that's all I have to say on this matter.
 
Last edited:
Whilst we are here, Statistics from the CIA Factbook says the UK has;

Unemployment rate:

4.7% (2005 est.)

Population below poverty line:

17% (2002 est.)

So there's quite a few people who need looking after by the state, you don't realise just how badly off some people are.
 
SkinzCinqSporting said:
Population below poverty line:

17% (2002 est.)

thats alot of people and i wouldn't be surprised if the number has risen in the last 4 years.

These people need our help to better themselves and do well for their kids. Not abuse because they find themsevles in an unfortunate situation.
 
Oh yes I do. (Know about poverty)

But where do you draw the poverty line? No Nintendo, no TV, no car, no I-pod; I only say this because I know rich people with none of these things. And I also haven't got half the consumer goods many people, including the 'poor' demand as essential.

Seriously though, I know there are a lot of poorish people - like that 'family' which was brought forward for public humiliation at the beginning of this thread, but should I condider them all acceptable? Can't we try and put in place systems to discourage dependency?

I'm sure you would do the decent thing if you screwed up, but wouldn't your family muck in, and hers, and all of them support you both through it all until you finish your education? Family, the extended family I mean, should be the first support base, and this should be encouraged by the state. Benefits belong to those truly without other support, and should not be a lifestyle option.

I'm bored by all this as well, so I'm signing off too. Off out tonight - must be careful:devil: :devil:
 
Ulpian said:
The Americans are turning their own dependency culture around - to the benefit of everybody. I am not talking healthcare by the way. Their's is crap.

Are you kidding? The USA has some of the best medical and care facilities in the world. IF you can afford healthcare insurance that is. If you can't, well, better not get sick then...

And sure they don't have the same dependency culture that we have, but they have more extremes as a result. Look at New Orleans after Hurricane Wilma. They had to rely on emergency funding and donations, and even then over a year later many people still hadn't received anything. Some are still struggling to maintain the minimum standards of life, such as running water and electricity. That is exactly what the welfare state was set up to prevent, and why in the USA they still have a high proportion of homeless and poverty stricken people compared with other 1st world countries.

As many have already pointed out, life isn't black and white. Not all people on benefits are scroungers, neither are all single mums guilty of sleeping around. Not all divorces are because a woman knowingly enters into a marriage with a wife abuser.

Talking of which, I come from a broken home. There was no way my parents could have stuck together, either my mother would have ended up with a nervous breakdown from 'mental torture' (as quoted by the judge in the divorce hearing), and towards the end she suffered physical abuse as well. Or I would have killed my father for what he was doing to my mother. In fact, the last thing I had to do with my father was decking him and about to pull his throat out for pushing my mother through a plate glass dividing door. I might have done more than just that to him had my brother not pulled me off before things got really out of hand.

Oh, it's also worth bearing in mind that my parents were just coming up to their 25th wedding anniversary, so relationships and people DO change over time. Sometimes irretrievably.

However, I do agree that some people ought to put a little more thought into entering into a marriage. Sometimes it is just an impulse and so often it all breaks down after a very short space of time. Clearly in those cases it was never going to work in the first place had the couple bothered to sit down and think it through first.

As for the 'dependency culture', there is a name for them. Sociologists call this group of people the 'Underclass'. Working class people are respectable and contribute to society by doing unskilled manual labour. They do support themselves and pay taxes. The Underclass are the scum, the types you see in the Sun article or on Trishia showing what lowlives they are.

As for the answer to the problem? I don't know. If you bring in drastic measures you will hurt those that genuinely DO need help. If you don't you allow the dependency culture to flourish. Gradually they are clamping down, but YOU try finding a solution that doesn't hurt the needy and treats the scroungers as they so deserve.

Life isn't black and white, and there are often many sides to a story. However, I do think the pride of being British has long disappeared, along with wanting to be respectable and to stand on your own two feet. That has allowed the dependency culture of the underclass to grow, which I hasten to add doesn't appear to include anyone who posts on this forum thankfully.

Welfare is needed, but abuse of the system is not. And tarring everyone with the same brush is just as bad as it takes no account of what got them into the situation in the first place. But we really do need to clamp down on the underclass and deal with those who want to claim benefits with no intention of contributing back to society. Whatever regulations are brought in though, someone is going to lose out one way or another.

I haven't got a solution, and to be honest I don't think there is one. That's also why I chose not to take my social science studies further and work in that field. Bio-science is WAY easier to deal with than re-structuring the welfare state!
 
Last edited:
I agree with everything your saying Uno my parents were married for 31 years before they divorced and although my Dad was never physically abusive he did put my mum through alot of emotional pain which i will never forgive him for.
 
Back
Top