How Hard is it to break a Wheel bolt?

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How Hard is it to break a Wheel bolt?

A

Ash

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the reason i ask is because i have managed it

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does anyone know where i can get some replacements that are stronger? they need to be 15mm longer than a normal bolt to accomidate my alloys over the brembos

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Im Driven to Earn, and I Earn to Drive......

Rear leather bravo seats for sale contact me @ [email protected]
 
The standard bolt is 8.8 so anything up will be stronger.
Breaking it is easy - broke about 20 wheel bolts in my life time.
So I got me a torque wrench - no broken bolts more :)
And I think you wont find stronger screws that have a cone head- but you live in UK so dont realy know.

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^^What he said.
You must have been a little heavy handed to shear one Ash! The factory torque isnt all that much.
I have high-grade cap-head allen bolts in mine now, alternatively you could go all out on titanium/inconel jobbies but at 14-40 squids EACH, was a little out of my price range. If memory serves me you are after M12x1.25.
 
I snapped 2 when I 1st got my wheels, but I did have the wrong spigot rings, I was using a long bar so I had too much leveridge.
Took me ages getting the rest of the bolt out, I end up drilling! Is the bolt still in?
Dan
 
You actually need a certain amount of elastic stretch in the material, anything too strong (ie titanium) or something unsuitable (inconel) would snap more easily.

Either ash has been overtightening them (they specify a torque for a reason) or he's got the wrong PCD wheels or the wrong centre bore.
 
“Tensile ultimate strength is the stress at which the bolt fails (breaks in half). Tensile yield strength is the stress at which the bolt will receive a permanent set (an elongation from which it will not recover when the force is removed) of 0.2 %. When elongating a fastener prior to reaching the yield point, the fastener is said to be operating in the elastic region; whereas elongation beyond the yield point is referred to as operating in the plastic region, since the fastener has suffered permanent plastic deformation.
High-strength bolts have property class 8.8 or above.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screws)

This therefore gives 8.8 HT (Standard Fiat bolt) a Min Tensile Strength 800 MPa & Min Yield Strength 640 MPa.


Titanium 6Al-4V:

“Titanium is extensively used in the aerospace industry and increasingly used in general engineering applications especially where high strength/weight ratio and corrosion resistance are major considerations.
Applications include pumps and valves, turbines and airframes, fasteners, automotive components including valves, springs and connecting rods…
Titanium 6Al-4V is a high-strength, alpha-beta alloy which is fully heat-treatable and is the most versatile of the titanium alloys.” (http://www.maher.co.uk/alloyTitan6AL4V.php)

Min Tensile Strength 897 MPa
Min Yield Strength 827 MPa


Inconel 718:

“Alloy 718 was initially developed for the aerospace industry but its excellent strength and corrosion resistance were recognised by the oil industry and it is now widely used in this field also.
Alloy 718 for aerospace and power generation is heat treated to give maximum strength and high creep resistance with typical hardness values exceeding 42HRC. The major applications are components for gas turbines, aircraft engines, fasteners and other high strength applications.” (http://www.maher.co.uk/alloy718.php)

Min Tensile Strength 1275 MPa
Min Yield Strength 1034 MPa



“Titanium bolts can replace both grade 5 and grade 8 steel bolts which have minimum UTS requirements of 120,000 psi and 150,000 psi respectively. Metric bolts with an 8.8 rating can be replaced with titanium while bolts with a 10.9 rating can sometimes be replaced with titanium depending on intended use. Any bolts with a rating over 10.9 rating should not be replaced with titanium.” (http://www.mettec.com/technical.htm)



“New titanium wheel bolts and damper springs increase resistance to roll and dip and have made directional changes more rapid.”
“the 19-inch Challenge-style BBS alloy wheels being secured by titanium bolts and shod with Pirelli P Zero Corsa tyres designed specifically for this car.”
(http://www.qv500.com/ferrari360p4.php)



As you can see from his sig, Ash has 17” stilo wheels, so PCD will be 98, and I would speculate that they have the correct centre bore also.

If the material has a higher minimum yield, let alone tensile strength there is no way it will shear under tightening before a bolt with lesser values.

At the end of the day there is more than one person on here with “Ferrari in affordable trim” in their signature and no one is going to take your word over that of a 360 Modena Challenge Stradale, or at least that of the design team. If Ferrari utilises titanium wheel bolts then im sure they are more than suitable for any Bravo.
 
Those are two very specific grades.

"Any bolts with a rating over 10.9 rating should not be replaced with titanium"

ie 10.9 steel bolts are STRONGER than titanium.

If you want high strength then steel is the way to go.
 
The bolts were torqued to the correct setting and the bolt was snapped during driving!!! as for pcd the wheels are fiat wheels so as you will guess the pcd is perfect for the car
 
For our figure quoting anon friend:

10.9 steel
1040Mpa tensile
940Mpa yeild

12.9 steel
1220Mpa tensile
1100Mpa yeild

So much for fancypants materials ;)
 
Yes, they are specific, but 6Al-4V is the most common Ti-alloy and is not exactly unheard of.
You however were too hasty in ruling out both the materials as a whole: “anything too strong (ie titanium) or something unsuitable (inconel) would snap more easily.�


“If you want high strength then steel is the way to go.�

Class 10.9 HT

Min Tensile Strength 1040 MPa
Min Yield Strength 940 MPa
(http://www.vfbolts.com/s-liner.htm)

Class 12.9 HT

1220 Mpa tensile
1100 Mpa yield
(Courtesy of Tom)

Inconel 718:

Min Tensile Strength 1275 MPa
Min Yield Strength 1034 MPa


Seems like inconel (grade specific-718) is stronger at ultimate tensile level than even 12.9 steel Tom… Im sure the 66 MPa discrepancy is offset by its (55 MPa higher UTS) and the fact that its is far more corrosion resitant.

You seem far too keen to ‘poo-poo' anyone else's comments Tom, if they are wholly, categorically incorrect then fine, but you also seem to skip over the statements which people accurately sight.
At the end of the day it is clear now that both titanium and inconel (even if only the grade-specific types I speculated) are wholly SUITABLE for Ash's application if not the most cost-effective.
So do you agree that “anything too strong (ie titanium) or something unsuitable (inconel) would snap more easily�, might have been a little bit of an over-generalisation???
 
There is a reason why most cars have steel bolts. Heck, some even have aluminium wheel nuts.

Inconel may be stronger but is it suitable? Is a material designed for sustained 500+degC operation suitable at 0degC?

Would either the titanium or inconel have a reaction with the steel (possible cast iron) drive flange or aluminium wheel causing corrosion of one or all of the materials?

Titanium is actually quite brittle, could it take the shock loads that the more ductile steel can cope with?

Are the wheel bolts on the ferrari M12? :)
 
Isn't speculation a wonderful thing...

Does a Bravo produce 425 bhp and 373 Nm torque, corner at over 1.0G and accelerate from 0-60mph in 4.0 sec?

I think not, all things are relative…
 
Calm it calm it lads.

Put the handbags away :)

@ Anon

Just a thought but your name would be good in the "Your Name" Box.

At least we will know who posting the this useful piece of info.

Well it looks utter b**locks to me but then again I don't work with metal. Probably mean more to my brother who use to work in the Lab at a metal foundry.

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Stu R
"Old enough to know better"
"Young enough not to care"
 
rite went to midlands preformance centre said i snaped a bolt and he kindly handed me some stronger ones made by eibach

ashtag2.jpg


Im Driven to Earn, and I Earn to Drive......

Rear leather bravo seats for sale contact me @ [email protected]
 
Isnt it great how you have tom who is perfectly willing to give his opinion along with his name then some chicken sh*t Anon who wont give his name, afraid your ideas might be laughed at mate?
 
So Seb would you like to add your metallurgy experiences then…
The question “How Hard is it to break a Wheel bolt?” The answer easier than breaking a gearbox-yet you still managed the latter Seb!
Come to think of it haven't you just bought a car with a defunct rear wiper and now a knackered speedo to match?! And you're on your second set of M3 mirrors-ha!! You're the only one to laugh at......mate.
 
all Seb was saying, like a few others already, that altho you have made a fair and well put together argument you still havent put your name to one thing you have written, and i think he has a valid point. i will be totally honest i have no idea when it comes down to the grading of metals and their inherant properties, but i put my name to it. i dont have a clue how easy it is to break a wheel bolt, but i would have thought it would depend on age and usage, if its on a 15 yr old car thats covered stupid miles then i would have thought that it would be weaker than a brand new one. all i can say is that i havent had one break on me in 6 yrs of messing with cars in some way or another. and Ash's broke while driving, not while being undone or done up....

and on the car thing, grow up ffs. gearboxes do go, primarily ask the 1.2 owners like myself, wimmy and geforce, but they can go on any car. and maybe he is experiencing a few problems with his latest one, but thats what the forum is here for, to get assistance for when thigs do go wrong....

Andy_sx
 

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