Technical Hole in in the rear wheel well?

[The Panda Nut]

oh dear, something else that needs to be done then
I wouldn’t know where to start - where do you get all your maintenance instructions/info?

Btw pretty sure the car’s never been anywhere more hazardous than Waitrose car park, and I’ve no plans to go off-roading - does that make a difference?

 

[The Panda Nut]

Well its better thanif you go in the mud, but over time it does still build up. My car is 5 years old and its on my list of things to do but not top priority. I live in rural Norfolk and there is enough mud in the winter for it to be an issue.

 

[JayAre]

Well its better thanif you go in the mud, but over time it does still build up. My car is 5 years old and its on my list of things to do but not top priority. I live in rural Norfolk and there is enough mud in the winter for it to be an issue.

thing is I can’t start removing car body parts without exact instructions (+preferably pics!) else I’d break something and/or never be able to put it back together again

That’s why I can’t do the most basic things on the 312/9 - like changing the air filter - there isn’t even a Haynes Manual now

 

[The Panda Nut]

thing is I can’t start removing car body parts without exact instructions (+preferably pics!) else I’d break something and/or never be able to put it back together again

That’s why I can’t do the most basic things on the 312/9 - like changing the air filter - there isn’t even a Haynes Manual now

Remind me if you have a TA or 1.2. The 1.2 service is simple and is identicacl to the 169 Panda for which there is a Haynes book. Most of the jobs are the same just slight differences in some parts like suspension. A manual for the169 is worth having. Haynes do an electronic book. I was very unimpressed and got a refund but I believe @Hertshillhopper has more patience and feels its worth having. At around £30 is not to expensive and does give some pictures so may be he can provide a few more insights? If you are going to do jobs let us know and there will be many people who can help. ALso check the guides. I will maybe do a service guide if there is nothiong in teh guides section.

 

[JayAre]

@The Panda Nut
TA.
I do know the brake disc/rear suspension setup is entirely different - my 2006 169 4x4 had all new discs fitted after nearly 10 years (I had it for 14+ years) and my “new” 2016 312/9 TA 4x4 recently had the same job done. Was expecting simple job+reasonable price, and I suspect my local independent was too! (who I’ve used 40+ years) - instead he had a nightmare job: completely different rear and very awkward.
Also, the 169 had a simple mechanical 4x4 system (which was 100% reliable - because nothing to go wrong?) but the 312/9 is ECU controlled (bit like Haldex?)
I suspect the clutch/DMF setup is very different too (not sure 169 had a DMF…?)
But I think you may be right about the body frame - the doors+sills are the same? (maybe the tops are different? pretty sure the fancy sill protectors I’ve just fitted had the same part number as the 169)
And then, of course, there’s the engine…
Btw the Haynes ‘thing’ is currently on offer at £27 and the blurb says it includes an OBD “diagnostic tool - Enter a fault code in the electronic diagnosis module and follow the instructions to test components in order, and establish the likely cause of a problem. Our tool goes far beyond what commonly available fault code readers offer, and puts you, the car owner, back in control. Even if you choose not to complete the repair yourself, you will know exactly what the problem is when you hand it over to a workshop.”
BUT BUT BUT this ‘thing’ is only available from the cloud online so cannot be downloaded! So you’re working outside in the rain and your router connection keeps dropping out… AND they say it’s no longer hold-your-hand step-by-step guidance

 

[Panda IIs]

@The Panda Nut
TA.
I do know the brake disc/rear suspension setup is entirely different - my 2006 169 4x4 had all new discs fitted after nearly 10 years (I had it for 14+ years) and my “new” 2016 312/9 TA 4x4 recently had the same job done. Was expecting simple job+reasonable price, and I suspect my local independent was too! (who I’ve used 40+ years) - instead he had a nightmare job: completely different rear and very awkward.
Also, the 169 had a simple mechanical 4x4 system (which was 100% reliable - because nothing to go wrong?) but the 312/9 is ECU controlled (bit like Haldex?)
I suspect the clutch/DMF setup is very different too (not sure 169 had a DMF…?)
But I think you may be right about the body frame - the doors+sills are the same? (maybe the tops are different? pretty sure the fancy sill protectors I’ve just fitted had the same part number as the 169)
And then, of course, there’s the engine…
Btw the Haynes ‘thing’ is currently on offer at £27 and the blurb says it includes an OBD “diagnostic tool - Enter a fault code in the electronic diagnosis module and follow the instructions to test components in order, and establish the likely cause of a problem. Our tool goes far beyond what commonly available fault code readers offer, and puts you, the car owner, back in control. Even if you choose not to complete the repair yourself, you will know exactly what the problem is when you hand it over to a workshop.”
BUT BUT BUT this ‘thing’ is only available from the cloud online so cannot be downloaded! So you’re working outside in the rain and your router connection keeps dropping out… AND they say it’s no longer hold-your-hand step-by-step guidance

The clutch/flywheel on my 312 TA includes a DMF - not sure this complicates any work but this does add cost via replacement components.

The engine is an engine with all the additional EURO 6 control stuff. The TA is a less common design but like all, benefits from proper maintenance, specifically oil changes and specification. It is quite highly strung in terms of power output at nearly 100bhp/litre but so far so good in my experience at 90kmiles.

On the Haynes "thing" be careful here; this from the Haynes site

"Haynes Autofix is not a Haynes Manual. We want to be very clear about this, but we know that our new product will enable many thousands of you to continue maintaining your vehicle and troubleshooting problems in a DIY environment."

They are already managing expectations pre-purchase! It seems you have to buy your own OBDII reader (Haynes states they are available for "as little" as £20) and you then use codes read to type into their on-line diagnostic tool. I would be very surprised if this offered anything more than a "go-no go" decision tree. Plus it is my understanding that FIAT/ALFA codes are not all readable by off the shelf OBDII tools?

I suspect also that the £27 turns into an annual subscription (but have no evidence of this?)?

Buyer beware!

 

[The Panda Nut]

The clutch/flywheel on my 312 TA includes a DMF - not sure this complicates any work but this does add cost via replacement components.

The engine is an engine with all the additional EURO 6 control stuff. The TA is a less common design but like all, benefits from proper maintenance, specifically oil changes and specification. It is quite highly strung in terms of power output at nearly 100bhp/litre but so far so good in my experience at 90kmiles.

On the Haynes "thing" be careful here; this from the Haynes site

"Haynes Autofix is not a Haynes Manual. We want to be very clear about this, but we know that our new product will enable many thousands of you to continue maintaining your vehicle and troubleshooting problems in a DIY environment."

They are already managing expectations pre-purchase! It seems you have to buy your own OBDII reader (Haynes states they are available for "as little" as £20) and you then use codes read to type into their on-line diagnostic tool. I would be very surprised if this offered anything more than a "go-no go" decision tree. Plus it is my understanding that FIAT/ALFA codes are not all readable by off the shelf OBDII tools?

I suspect also that the £27 turns into an annual subscription (but have no evidence of this?)?

Buyer beware!

I bought a copy and it was a download so it was available off line. What there was was good, but you already have eyes, so the superficial details did not add much for me and I felt it was a colossal rip off and told them so. May be the caveats have been added from my comments. HH has a copy and maybe has found more info than I did. I just had a pile of blank pages! I have softened my opinion and mar re buy as it is some information. Better than none. Age means Im less able to get under cars, so may just let the garage maintain mine. Though I give it a lot more care than Fiat stipulate.

I thnk if its vigorously maintained, kept really clean, and used reasonably it should give good service. I use the 4x4 occasionally to make sure its all in working order. Non use is a sure fire way to things failing. I never use the 4x4 unless off road, so hopefully dont strain tranmission which lacks a centre diff. I would gladly buy a decent worshop book even a very costly one. I suspect one may be available...... in Japanese. If I ever find one I will buy it and get it translated. After that, be sure I wouls share it. I do have MES and its paid its cost 5 times over at least and worth every penny. It gives peace of mind and knowledge if the car has to go in. THE TA system still baffles and needs a laboratory, not a workshop for R&R, costs a fortune and has ) parts availability or recyclability which is an outrage. It wasnt provided by Fiat, much like the selespeed geag changer, and Fiat have been lazy and never learned about either system. this madness makes cars so equipped undesirable second handand I wouldnt touch anthing not fastidiously maintained because of this. Noop is now old enough for it to be junked financially, so Im more relaxed about repair bills. I want many more years from him though as there is nothing available I would rather have and nothing for sale I would want to buy at any money. My son has an Audi e-tron RS coupe thing which I have been sampling. Its very very impressive, and indeed a fabulous thing, but its a huge, and too space invader like for an old fart like me. If I was offered one for nothing, it would be great, but value for money is off the bottom of the scale compared to a Panda for my needs and round our local roads just plain too big. I am a sucker however for the 22" wheels and enormous brakes.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I bought a copy and it was a download so it was available off line. What there was was good, but you already have eyes, so the superficial details did not add much for me and I felt it was a colossal rip off and told them so. May be the caveats have been added from my comments. HH has a copy and maybe has found more info than I did. I just had a pile of blank pages! I have softened my opinion and mar re buy as it is some information. Better than none. Age means Im less able to get under cars, so may just let the garage maintain mine. Though I give it a lot more care than Fiat stipulate.

I thnk if its vigorously maintained, kept really clean, and used reasonably it should give good service. I use the 4x4 occasionally to make sure its all in working order. Non use is a sure fire way to things failing. I never use the 4x4 unless off road, so hopefully dont strain tranmission which lacks a centre diff. I would gladly buy a decent worshop book even a very costly one. I suspect one may be available...... in Japanese. If I ever find one I will buy it and get it translated. After that, be sure I wouls share it. I do have MES and its paid its cost 5 times over at least and worth every penny. It gives peace of mind and knowledge if the car has to go in. THE TA system still baffles and needs a laboratory, not a workshop for R&R, costs a fortune and has ) parts availability or recyclability which is an outrage. It wasnt provided by Fiat, much like the selespeed geag changer, and Fiat have been lazy and never learned about either system. this madness makes cars so equipped undesirable second handand I wouldnt touch anthing not fastidiously maintained because of this. Noop is now old enough for it to be junked financially, so Im more relaxed about repair bills. I want many more years from him though as there is nothing available I would rather have and nothing for sale I would want to buy at any money. My son has an Audi e-tron RS coupe thing which I have been sampling. Its very very impressive, and indeed a fabulous thing, but its a huge, and too space invader like for an old fart like me. If I was offered one for nothing, it would be great, but value for money is off the bottom of the scale compared to a Panda for my needs and round our local roads just plain too big. I am a sucker however for the 22" wheels and enormous brakes.

Having grown up with hard copy manuals I find I just can't get on with downloaded stuff on my computer.

Maintain your vehicle regularly, maybe even "spoil" it, like many of us do, and use it - don't let it sit for long periods. and it should give good service. I've always wondered why a vehicle which is parked up outside and not driven rusts more quickly than one which is driven a lot.

I'm not impressed by "big" wheels particularly, especially if fitted with "skinny" sidewall tyres. Have to agree though that some cars don't look good on 13" rims. Getting a quick flash of big discs and maybe 4 pot calipers - painted red? - does make the heart skip a beat on some though.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Having grown up with hard copy manuals I find I just can't get on with downloaded stuff on my computer.

Maintain your vehicle regularly, maybe even "spoil" it, like many of us do, and use it - don't let it sit for long periods. and it should give good service. I've always wondered why a vehicle which is parked up outside and not driven rusts more quickly than one which is driven a lot.

I'm not impressed by "big" wheels particularly, especially if fitted with "skinny" sidewall tyres. Have to agree though that some cars don't look good on 13" rims. Getting a quick flash of big discs and maybe 4 pot calipers - painted red? - does make the heart skip a beat on some though.

I will post a pic of the Germanic American excess!

Big discs or

KINORMOUS ones

 

[The Panda Nut]

This thing is FLASH! Multiple air con in the back with down face or screen level output all selectable and individua;l climate zones. The doors have optical fibre strips that light up in .... any colour you want, lane control lights in mirrors, compas in the auto dimming mirror, head up display, sat nav on whichever screen you pick select the dash screen you want, and performance is wicked and I havn't sampled sports mode. Pulling into fast traffic is an experience only to be sampled by the brave or indeed the mad! Ground clearance is sufficient to make it easy to get in and out of and the boot is big enough to import brandy in the cask. It would probably handle a full size pallet. Somewhere in there apparently is a spare wheel in addition to an under floor boot storage compartment. Now this really wouldnt be me anymore, but I can very easily see why it appeals to someone younger. Its lease is up next year what on earth do you get to follow this, He wants a new Q6 and she wants a new Lotus Eletre. So Lotus it is them. I keep pushing UK made goods. I hope Lotus dont cock it up by selling a duffer. I am to be shown sport mode at some point. I might chicken out on that.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

View attachment 451400
This thing is FLASH! Multiple air con in the back with down face or screen level output all selectable and individua;l climate zones. The doors have optical fibre strips that light up in .... any colour you want, lane control lights in mirrors, compas in the auto dimming mirror, head up display, sat nav on whichever screen you pick select the dash screen you want, and performance is wicked and I havn't sampled sports mode. Pulling into fast traffic is an experience only to be sampled by the brave or indeed the mad! Ground clearance is sufficient to make it easy to get in and out of and the boot is big enough to import brandy in the cask. It would probably handle a full size pallet. Somewhere in there apparently is a spare wheel in addition to an under floor boot storage compartment. Now this really wouldnt be me anymore, but I can very easily see why it appeals to someone younger. Its lease is up next year what on earth do you get to follow this, He wants a new Q6 and she wants a new Lotus Eletre. So Lotus it is them. I keep pushing UK made goods. I hope Lotus dont cock it up by selling a duffer. I am to be shown sport mode at some point. I might chicken out on that.

I'm speechless, wouldn't know where to start making comment. Definite danger I'd do something silly if I got behind the wheel.

P.S. I rather like the yellow calipers - always liked yellow. My old Cordoba was Bengal yellow which meant it was impossible to loose it in a car park

 

[The Panda Nut]

I'm speechless, wouldn't know where to start making comment. Definite danger I'd do something silly if I got behind the wheel.

P.S. I rather like the yellow calipers - always liked yellow. My old Cordoba was Bengal yellow which meant it was impossible to loose it in a car park

Me too, that why Im not allowed to try it. But it can be docile too. Id still choose a Panda 4x4 tho!

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Subject drift?
I think the hole got filled in nearly a year ago…

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

thing is I can’t start removing car body parts without exact instructions (+preferably pics!) else I’d break something and/or never be able to put it back together again

That’s why I can’t do the most basic things on the 312/9 - like changing the air filter - there isn’t even a Haynes Manual now

It’s really very easy - just explore. Even if you do find a manual it doesn’t describe these actions. You can actually shift most of the small amount of mud that gets in there by directing the jet of a garden hose into the gap between the plastic and the metal (best done after a drive in the rain so it’s pre-softened). But if you feel the need to go further (only really necessary if you regularly off-road or use in an estuary environment), follow around the liner where there are two screws, two plastic plugs and a plastic nut. Remove the road wheel first and support car on an axle stand. The plastic liner be bent to get it out past the hub etc. Pull off the little ‘door’ that’s there to access the rear fog and reverse lights as this allows more ‘flex’ in the plastic. I’ve done mine once in six years and found next to no dirt in there - but that’s because I regularly aim the hose into that area after my frequent off-road adventures. It’s all galvanised anyway so really shouldn’t be able to rust.
Much better to spend the time hosing out the spring ‘cups’ and rear suspension in general as this does rust - again at six years old mine looks ‘nearly new’ here owing to regular use of the hose. (Don’t use a pressure washer - that’s too powerful and will strip the thin paint on those parts)

 

[JayAre]

@Herts Hillhopper
Thanks, that’s very useful advice +excellent pics (filed away) - I love that little door!

 

[The Panda Nut]

It’s really very easy - just explore. Even if you do find a manual it doesn’t describe these actions. You can actually shift most of the small amount of mud that gets in there by directing the jet of a garden hose into the gap between the plastic and the metal (best done after a drive in the rain so it’s pre-softened). But if you feel the need to go further (only really necessary if you regularly off-road or use in an estuary environment), follow around the liner where there are two screws, two plastic plugs and a plastic nut. Remove the road wheel first and support car on an axle stand. The plastic liner be bent to get it out past the hub etc. Pull off the little ‘door’ that’s there to access the rear fog and reverse lights as this allows more ‘flex’ in the plastic. I’ve done mine once in six years and found next to no dirt in there - but that’s because I regularly aim the hose into that area after my frequent off-road adventures. It’s all galvanised anyway so really shouldn’t be able to rust.
Much better to spend the time hosing out the spring ‘cups’ and rear suspension in general as this does rust - again at six years old mine looks ‘nearly new’ here owing to regular use of the hose. (Don’t use a pressure washer - that’s too powerful and will strip the thin paint on those parts)

Its the bottom 4 inches near the A pillar that is the big collector.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Its the bottom 4 inches near the A pillar that is the big collector.

I regularly send the hose jet there too - by squirting round past the hinges of the open bonnet - until clean water runs out at the base of the wing panel down by the front door hinge. Makes a huge difference (on any car)

 

[Motorcyclist Colin]

View attachment 451400
This thing is FLASH! Multiple air con in the back with down face or screen level output all selectable and individua;l climate zones. The doors have optical fibre strips that light up in .... any colour you want, lane control lights in mirrors, compas in the auto dimming mirror, head up display, sat nav on whichever screen you pick select the dash screen you want, and performance is wicked and I havn't sampled sports mode. Pulling into fast traffic is an experience only to be sampled by the brave or indeed the mad! Ground clearance is sufficient to make it easy to get in and out of and the boot is big enough to import brandy in the cask. It would probably handle a full size pallet. Somewhere in there apparently is a spare wheel in addition to an under floor boot storage compartment. Now this really wouldnt be me anymore, but I can very easily see why it appeals to someone younger. Its lease is up next year what on earth do you get to follow this, He wants a new Q6 and she wants a new Lotus Eletre. So Lotus it is them. I keep pushing UK made goods. I hope Lotus dont cock it up by selling a duffer. I am to be shown sport mode at some point. I might chicken out on that.

MOST IMPRESSIVE! Whatever floats your boat. Now please tell me where I can buy a nice, Citroen 2CV Much more my thing, and I can repair just about everything on it with some duct tape a few cable ties and a length of strong string. But then I'm a senile old goat, with more sense than money. No offence intended.

 

[Motorcyclist Colin]

PS Love my 4x4 Panda though!.
And my 1964 Greeves twin
And my 1984 BM G/S
And........................................... ah well I did say I was a senile old goat

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

MOST IMPRESSIVE! Whatever floats your boat. Now please tell me where I can buy a nice, Citroen 2CV Much more my thing, and I can repair just about everything on it with some duct tape a few cable ties and a length of strong string. But then I'm a senile old goat, with more sense than money. No offence intended.

Acadiane for me please. Fancied one ever since I owned a Dyane 6 years ago.