Higher mileage diesels - Yay or Nay?

[Alexander1990]

A colleague at work just picked up a "new" car today. A little supermini with a diesel engine with around 80,000 miles on

I've been looking at some Bravos, the next car I am thinking of getting and have come across some multijet versions at a decent price with around the same mileage on (ranging between 60,000 and 80,000 on average)

My question is, is it a good idea to purchase a car with this mileage on?

Many Thanks

Alexander

 

[AndyRKett]

I wouldn't advise it if the car is fitted with a dual mass flywheel, you don't know how much abuse a car has had in its life and at about 80k the flywheels seems to start to give up and fail, this often coincides with the need for a new clutch aswell, add cambelt replacement intervals and clogged egr and DPF issues and suddenly a high mileage car doesn't seem such a great idea

 

[Alexander1990]

Well I'm still undecided as to whether to get a T-Jet or a Multi-Jet

What mileage should I be looking at for a good buy?

 

[AndyRKett]

Others will say different but personally I would keep it bellow 50k to give you a couple of years before the big bills roll in

 

[dave]

60,000 and 80,000 isnt high mileage for a diesel engine, 60,000 isnt even high mileage for a petrol engine

 

[Peter Pick-Up]

Two years ago I bought a 2004 Alfa Romeo GT jtd 16V (150hp Fiat Diesel engine) with about 120.000mls and uncertain history.
Today it has 160.000 mls without problems, I intend to drive it for many more years, everyday it's a great joy to be on the road with this fine car/strong engine.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

It's a joke, and frankly irritating, people who seem to be scared of a DERV with a few miles on the clock, even a Petrol which has done some mileage.

As long as its a full service history and been looked after then there shouldn't be an issue with a sub 5-6 year old car, petrol upto 100k, and derv easily 100-150k, even after that they shouldnt cause many issues if looked after.

 

[dragonwagon]

I have had diesel Tipos, tempras and Mareas of uncertain service history with mileages in excess of 250k and no issues. I even had a Panda 1000CL a few years back with 425k on the clock and still on its original engine. So, what's the beef with mileage then?

 

[AndyRKett]

This is the real killer of modern cars with 60-80k miles on the clock which everyone seems to want to ignore !? Petrols and diesel both fail if they have a DMF fitted so there is no one derivative better than the other

 

[dragonwagon]

This is the real killer of modern cars with 60-80k miles on the clock which everyone seems to want to ignore !? Petrols and diesel both fail if they have a DMF fitted so there is no one derivative better than the other

Depending on use - our 120k miles Alfa 156 2.4 JTD with predominantly rural use still has its original DMF and no signs of failing. I think the lifespan of this component has much to do with the useage of the car, city driving with frequent stopping and starting likely to be much worse than relatively uninterrupted running.

 

[varesecrazy]

A colleague at work just picked up a "new" car today. A little supermini with a diesel engine with around 80,000 miles on

I've been looking at some Bravos, the next car I am thinking of getting and have come across some multijet versions at a decent price with around the same mileage on (ranging between 60,000 and 80,000 on average)

My question is, is it a good idea to purchase a car with this mileage on?

Many Thanks

Alexander

Hi,
it all depends on what use you are going to put it to,
annual mileage, etc,
Dual Mass Flywheel is ( should be) a one-off expense in the lifetime's ownership - @£700 /£1000 so factor that into your budget,


I bought a 2.5 year old marea JTD with 75,000 on the clock , but a comprehensive main-dealer history,
I didn't touch it for another 40K- (other than oil / filter changes), then did glow plugs(£40),
my sister in law had it at 150K, and had a clutch done at 160K ( was a £700 bill so presumably a DMF),

bottom line= buy a well looked after car, and keep it well maintained and you WILL reap the rewards,
buy a banger - and that's exactly what you'll have,
Charlie

 

[Peter Pick-Up]

This is the real killer of modern cars with 60-80k miles on the clock which everyone seems to want to ignore !? Petrols and diesel both fail if they have a DMF fitted so there is no one derivative better than the other

They don't fail often, that's a common myth.
It is suggested though, to have it changed every SECOND clutch change, and as it is no more than a suggestion, most owners don't.
So let's assume a clutch is worn at about 150.000-175.000mls, the dmf should be changed at 300.000-350.000 mls....!
What's the big deal..??
I have a spare clutch for the Alfa jtd in my workshop, but don't intend to change the dmf at all, as it is working just fine, (and I use my car every day, and use it hard, doing lot's of mls on the no speedlimit German motorways...!!).

 

[NightHaunter666]

I've read that elsewhere in Europe high mileage is not a big concern, its a British obsession. I don't mind, my 57 plate bravo mjet 150 sport had 125k at purchase, it feels sweet and I love it. it was a bargain because of its mileage. let AndyRKett have his say and keep prices low for us second hand buyers.

 

[AndyRKett]

They don't fail often, that's a common myth.
It is suggested though, to have it changed every SECOND clutch change, and as it is no more than a suggestion, most owners don't.

It's very common, unfortunately. Dual mass flywheels (DMFs) have been an unmitigated disaster. The reason for them is to absorb some of the engine torque, putting less strain on the transmission, particularly on the upchange from first to second. But their failure rate has been so high that companies like Ford and Mazda are now abandoning them in favour of ECU software that damps the throttle on upchanges, achieving much the same effect without the huge cost of having to replace DMFs every 60,000 miles.

you clearly didn't read any of that ?

well how about this

having had my fingers burnt and having to fork out £750 when the flywheel failed on an extremely well looked after car @ 77,000miles
If you do a search for Dual mass flywheel on google all you will find is forum Posts for every car manufacture under the sun saying "my DMF has failed" or the occasional advert for someone selling the parts, as failure rates go the DMF has a very high rate in automotive terms and is expensive to replaces hence why manufacturers are ditching them, and they only tend to care if components fail within the warrantee period.

the question was would you touch a diesel with 80,000 miles on the clock, well if you are willing to gamble on an untestable component failing a few months down the road then yeah why not?b I think i would rather heed the warning from the thousands of people out there who have had problems than a couple of people on one forum who disagree.

Its nothing to do with the engine/suspension/gearbox, I've been buying 100K+ mile cars for years without problems its all the new ones with these frankly crap unnecessary extras that go wrong and cost a lot of money which is why fleet buyers get nervous when their cars reach 50-60k miles and sell them off which is why you'll find no end of cheap 5 year old diesels that have 60-80,000 on the clock.

I don't need to get into arguments of "my car has this" or "that" I have first hand experience, they do fail and they fail common enough for it to be of concern when buying a car.

Just because your car has high milage unless you've owned it from new you can't say its on its original flywheel, you also can't say the flywheel you have isn't already failing

But if you don't mind footing the bill then fine buy what you want, its not my money

 

[ban1111]

Others will say different but personally I would keep it bellow 50k to give you a couple of years before the big bills roll in

DMFs can go anytime as they are a wear item so guessing the mileage when it goes, is like guessing how long a piece of string is.
With regards FIATs diesel well they don't seem to be so bad as some other makes, although the DMF issue is an over hyped story anyway when you think just how many cars have them as standard, ie Millions upon millions.
Fiats diesels dont have super high lowdown torque compared to some other manufacturers with 225 Ft/LB of torque being a sort of Max Fiat/Alfa have claimed for years on there 150bhp engines, where as many manufacturers have much more torque per BHP. The bravo 1.9 120 which the wife has has Only 188 Ft/LB less than the punto grande 1.9 120bhp. so it shows [I think] where DMFs are concerned Fiats on average maywell be better than some.
Never had an issue with my 120k Alfa 156 2.4 jtd never had an issue with my Sealt Alhambra or ford Galaxy both 1.9vw lumps kicking out 130 bhp and 229 Ft/LB of torque and both above the 100k mark. On the other hand my mondeo 2.2 tdci with 120k had the full works done at 120k at a cost of a grand.
there's too much over hype concerning DMFs Egr valves and the new gadget DPFs, sure they go wrong but not on a grand scaleor even the scale of say a coil pack on a petrol and they aint exactly cheap either....

 

[Peter Pick-Up]

Millions of cars with DMF indeed, and only a small fraction of them fail...so what's the big deal...??


More parts that are supposedly to fail premature: high pressure injection pumps and EGR valve's...
Problem is, they are rather expensive parts, so people affected complain about it on the internet, and so the myth starts....!!

 

[ban1111]

you clearly didn't read any of that ?

well how about this

having had my fingers burnt and having to fork out £750 when the flywheel failed on an extremely well looked after car @ 77,000miles
If you do a search for Dual mass flywheel on google all you will find is forum Posts for every car manufacture under the sun saying "my DMF has failed" or the occasional advert for someone selling the parts, as failure rates go the DMF has a very high rate in automotive terms and is expensive to replaces hence why manufacturers are ditching them, and they only tend to care if components fail within the warrantee period.

the question was would you touch a diesel with 80,000 miles on the clock, well if you are willing to gamble on an untestable component failing a few months down the road then yeah why not?b I think i would rather heed the warning from the thousands of people out there who have had problems than a couple of people on one forum who disagree.

Its nothing to do with the engine/suspension/gearbox, I've been buying 100K+ mile cars for years without problems its all the new ones with these frankly crap unnecessary extras that go wrong and cost a lot of money which is why fleet buyers get nervous when their cars reach 50-60k miles and sell them off which is why you'll find no end of cheap 5 year old diesels that have 60-80,000 on the clock.

I don't need to get into arguments of "my car has this" or "that" I have first hand experience, they do fail and they fail common enough for it to be of concern when buying a car.

Just because your car has high milage unless you've owned it from new you can't say its on its original flywheel, you also can't say the flywheel you have isn't already failing

But if you don't mind footing the bill then fine buy what you want, its not my money

Sorry do not know how to quote just part of a post but with reference to the telephraph or whichever paper, how come they don't talk specifics? ie numbers? even 100,100 a year in failed DMF would only be 6 or 7% and then there are the number of wrong diagnosed Failure that only come to light after companies like LUK get the so called damaged DMFs to check. So many are mis diagnosed by so called expects that LUK came out with a specially tool for checking them just a couple of years back. the cost to manufacturer them is dear so obviously if a cheaper solution could be found no doubt manufacturers would go that way anyway, so maybe they will one day be phased out or maybe newer designs will last longer, ie turbo's last longer than when first introduced.
As for the Ford statement concerning ECUs control less torque in first and second gear!!!!! my that is old news ford was doing that back in 2004! the mondeo 2.2 tdci had restriction on torque in 1st and 2nd gear back then! sounds like these papers reported the end of WW2 in 1952!

 

[Peter Pick-Up]

And there's always this:

http://www.js-tuning.nl/reinforced-flywheelclutch-stage-p-147.html?language=en

 

[s130]

In the interest of discussion and knowledge I'll add my experience and what I think is a simple (but not guaranteed) way to judge the wear on a DMF without getting your hands dirty.

1st my exeprience of a Croma 16V 150 Mulijet. When my clutch had to be replaced due to a premature clutch cover plate pressure plate/diaphram failure, at around 46K miles, I got the garage to check the DMF. They showed me the excess play between the flywheel components and suggested that the DMF was better off being replaced now as the clutch plate was in fine shape (despite towing a caravan 3000 miles per year) and the new clutch would in their opinion outlast the DMF based on these particular set of circumstances.

Now for the test.

When a DMF is new there is no play between the inner and out parts and the springs keep the components snugly pressed against each other. As the DMF wears, mainly due to spring compression/stress, a small amount of play develops between the componenents.

I first noticed a difference/rattling noise when my car was around 30K miles only. I park on a 1 in 10 drive slope and on some cold morning when starting the engine (which was going to be lumpy anyway) I got a distinct rattle like something was broken. Pick the revs up and the noise went away. We also have a level part to our drive and I had never noticed this noise/rattle.

Then, one day after the putting the car on ramps for a service, I started the engine with the car still on the ramps and there was horrendous clattering & rattling, scared me to hell, and I shut the engine off ASAP. Next step was to get back under the car while still on the ramps and inspect for broken mounts etc. etc. I found nothing.

So tried again and same problem. Then things start to bound around my head. Those cold engine starts on a 1 in 10 slope with odd rattling but not on the flat! I wonder...this is one hell of a more than 1 in 10 slope on the ramps. Pushed car of ramps back to a 1 in 10 slope and treid the start again. Just the previous rattling.

So what is happening?

Simple at a zero degree slope the DMF is vertical and balanced in all planes. Off zero then the DMF is out of balance in the vertical plane. With good springs and no play then this is not an issue. However if the springs/play is small/moderate then the DMF spins up out of balance and there is no dampenning effect from the springs. Basically rattles between spring end stops. As soon as revs are picked up beyond idle the resonant frequency diminishes and everything settles down.

So the DIY DMF wear test/warning is as follows:

If when starting a cold engine on a cold day and on a slope you hear rattlnig beyond the normal diesel tattle then there is wear/play in your DMF.

When this starts happening on the level then there is even more wear in the DMF.

Where or at what level of rattling indicated an impending DMF failure I have no idea.

All I do now is if I get that rattle/imbalence then I picks the revs up/down till it all goes quiet again.

Will be interesting to see how many other people have experienced/know what I'm talking about?

 

[Peter Pick-Up]

I noticed something similar with my old Fiorino Pick-Up Diesel WITHOUT dmf, replaced the complete clutch unit ( Valeo) and it came back within days.

http://www.valeoclutches.com/media/document/ReleaseBearingNoisewithPedalUp.pdf

http://www.valeoclutches.com/media/document/ReleaseBearingNoisewithPedalDown.pdf

http://www.valeoclutches.com/troubleshooting