Technical High clutch + heavy pedal + creak

[Gman88667733]

I'm taking on our 1.1 Panda as my commuter car now and the clutch is quite obviously not right. (2004 - 50k miles)

It has always been high, but it bites at pretty much the top of the pedal now, doesn't slip though. Also, the pedal is quite heavy and makes a loud creak/groan as you push the pedal in whether the engine is on or off (Noise comes from outside the car I think, but can be heard inside too) The pedal doesn't feel smooth either, feels stiff and almost like it isn't lubricated enough.

Is this just in need of a new clutch? Or could it be multiple bits?

Cheers

Edit - also, I think it is the slave cylinder that is the noisy bit. I'll order one in to swap over. When bleeding it afterwards, can I just keep bleeding until the fresh clutch fluid is coming through? If so, how much fluid does the system usually hold? The current stuff looks pretty bad and not clear. (I've never bled a clutch before, so excuse my lack of knowledge!)

 

[koalar]

its best practice to remove as much of the old fluid First. Less chance of dirt damaging the master cylinder.

garages use a vacuum system. Turky baster, syringe or syphon.

not critical though

Buy the smallest bottle possible is plenty. Once opened it can't be keept for latter use. Although I use any left over liquid for cleaning parts

As to your other problems, might as well wait until the new part is fitted. At least to will be one part eliminated.

 

[Gman88667733]

So just remove all the fluid from the reservoir?
I now know the noise when pressing the clutch pedal is definitely the slave cylinder, I got my partner to press the clutch as I was under the bonnet. Definitely the culprit! So I'll get one ordered and see how it feels after putting that on with some fresh fluid.
The bite point has been high since we got it at 37k miles and I don't think has massively changed since then, but it is high.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Yup, as Koalar says, suck out all the old liquid in the reservoir first and try to remove the black gunge which is nearly always found in the bottom of the reservoir to spare the cylinder seals when bleeding. Then gently top up with new fluid to avoid disturbing any remaining gunge and keep checking the level as you bleed - the reservoir is not very big.

Because this is the clutch we're talking about here, when bleeding there's no reason why you shouldn't just pump the pedal because a clutch pedal normally goes full stroke in normal use. Brakes are a bit different because the pedal does not go full stroke, more usually two thirds of the total available movement? So if you then take it to the floor when bleeding then the seals are moving in a part of the master cylinder they normally never touch and sometimes this is enough to damage them. So never bleed brakes with a full depression of the pedal.

Again, as Koalar says, brake fluid shouldn't be stored once it's container seal has been broken because brake fluid is hygroscopic (absorbs moisture from the air) which lowers it's boiling point. As brakes get very hot when used "enthusiastically" this is very dangerous.

For the clutch you're not going to need much fluid. Even for a complete brake system purge, as in when flushing old fluid as you should do every 2 to 3 years, I find a litre of fluid is usually enough. I'd then keep any left over for maybe a month or two, with the lid screwed on tightly, for topping up if needed but then I'd dispose of it and buy new next time I needed some.

Interestingly my Ibiza is supposed to use DOT4+ (or ESP as some specify it) I believe the boiling point of the ESP is slightly higher and it absorbs moisture more slowly so I'm keen to use it when I change the fluid which I'll be doing soon. However it's more expensive and my local factor doesn't seem to stock it so I'll just keep on putting DOT4 into our Panda (which is what's specified anyway)

The plastic slave cylinder on our Pandas and their predilection for squeaking, grunting and leaking has been the subject of many posts in our forum. Some say that when they give trouble you should just change the whole caboodle including the master and it's associated piping. Certainly that would eliminate any suspicions. I had a very squeaky clutch on our 2010 Panda when the pedal was depressed and identified the slave as being the source. Changed just the slave a couple of years ago and the noise went away and it's still OK. However when my boy's Punto started playing up we ended up doing both cylinders.

 

[jrkitching]

If so, how much fluid does the system usually hold?

Very little; the clutch master holds only about 50ml so you need to keep topping it up regularly when bleeding the clutch. Personally I use a vacuum bleeder; the stupid design of the bleed means anything which pressurises the system (including pedal pumping) will spray fluid everywhere and vacuuming helps to control the mess. I'd suggest you have some water handy when bleeding to pour onto any spilt fluid; Dot3/4 washes away easily as it's completely water soluble.

If you don't mind working 'blind', it's perfectly feasible to bleed the clutch with the battery and battery tray in-situ.

 

[DaveMcT]

Air in the hydraulics causes a low pedal that wont release the clutch.

Worn-out clutch causes a high pedal with a heavy action that wont properly release the clutch. The pedal feels like you are bending something that should not be bending - because you are!

To rule out the hydraulics, just bleed the fluid through and clean up the mass afterwards with biological laundry liquid. Old fluid gets pushed through the system. Job done. If the master cylinder is worn, the problem will return as it sucks air past the seals. If the clutch stays heavy and high you need a new clutch.

 

[RalphM]

I had a noisy slave cylinder pulled the dust seal off the end and
shoved some of that red rubber grease in, it took a few runs out
but it is now silent and smooth.
Don't think plastic slave cylinders are the best idea anyone ever had.

 

[DaveMcT]

The problems are caused by cheapo steel tube master cylinders which cannot be repaired. LuK (OEM supplier) slave cylinders can be got new for under £40 so really not worth faffing about with. Master cylinders can be silly money but look carefully and they are under £60.