Grande Punto Help reading the graph on MES

[s130]

Have you considered that the left wheel is totally out of balance?

Does swapping the left / right wheels make a difference?

Sadly we can not feel / experience the issue in person. Also are you being over sensitive in recent times? By that I mean is this a sudden changing in characteristics / noise /play or something that has been growing over time?

 

[robertzd]

Thanks all for the help.
Wife is crazy, she say dont do anything on the car it's fine. Your spending money . Yeah she is right but it's tempting me to replace it.
Maybe I'l try to find old used gearbox. They are not so expensive. But with old one you newer know is it worse than mine. Repair work ( hands) will probably cost more than gearbox.
At least I'm happy that i find the cause of the problem.

s130 yesterady i was at tire shop, put all 4 summer tires new one. Its the same situation as before changing. I belive this is growing over time, we bought car 6 years ago, wife's first car when she got her driving licence. 90 % of time she was driving. Last lets say year i started to use it more often because it's so good for city driving, he is agile. After i ask her do you feel this, when is this hapening . She dont know, i belive girls dont pay some attention to that, possibly some men also, i dont blame her. But previouslu owner was also wife and she mention she did quite milage on grawel roads, dont know how to say it. Could that be reason of worn diferential?

 

[vexorg]

2. All 8V engines = valve clearance (shims). Also common thing to neglect (clueless people do timing belts and forget about this).

I've never found any engine with shims that actually needed adjustment. And very unlikely to cause a jerky response.

 

[GrandePunto PL]

You've missed the point. This is simple task to do while you're there (timing belt, using tools, after removing the valve cover etc.).
Extra 10-15 minutes. Just do it (check it), don't argue (do we need this, what are the symptoms - doesn't matter much).
Plus, there are countries where LPG is popular. And this can wear the valves faster (so you really need to check it every 2-3 years or so).

As for gearbox, yes, 2 females riding it, on the bad roads = of course it can shorten the life.
Used gearboxes are (should be, depends on country/continent) cheap.
You can swap it yourself! Easy, like repairing the bicycle. Really. C514.5 weights only 30 kg.
Procedure (tip: remove the axles completely): https://www.youtube.com/@WMCS/search?query=Fiat

 

[vexorg]

You've missed the point. This is simple task to do while you're there (timing belt, using tools, after removing the valve cover etc.).
Extra 10-15 minutes. Just do it (check it), don't argue (do we need this, what are the symptoms - doesn't matter much).

I'm not arguing, just not going to do it if the engine is running smooth and has no issues.
I stopped checking many years ago when adjusters went out of fashion and shims were always fine. Then hydraulic tappets made the need non-existant.

 

[GrandePunto PL]

OK. The "you" was general, plural. People over-complicate things and neglect basic maintenance tasks.
Then, in case of problems, you have bigger "check list" to do, because almost nothing was done in the past (and small things add up).
Mostly oil changes only and folks think that's enough, the car is in "good condition" (no it's not).

 

[vexorg]

You've missed the point.

OK. The "you" was general, plural.

So who else missed the point?

(in scotland the plural of "you" is "yous" )

 

[robertzd]

You can swap it yourself! Easy, like repairing the bicycle. Really. C514.5 weights only 30 kg.
Procedure (tip: remove the axles completely): https://www.youtube.com/@WMCS/search?query=Fiat

I'm thinking of that. I have enough tool and just need some spare time to do it. Will be alot slower because it first time but I'l save some money. Just need to get good gearbox. I have watched couple videos. It doesnt look so complicated, punto with this engine has a loot free space in engine compartment. And clutch is replaced recently so there shouldnt be some stuck bolts that could cause the problem.

 

[s130]

Regarding valve clearances.

I'm not going to enter any discussions about picking issues with checking / not checking / silly not to etc.

What I will say is this.

Typically Fiats are 0.4 +/- 0.05mm for Inlet and 0.5 +/- 0.05mm Exhaust

My experience is these are very stable over time once checked and set after then engine has been properly run-in

If never checked before then it is worth doing as garages typically skip this

Like discussions about using cam belt timing tools vs locking / marking / replacing (with double checks) then if you know that the timing has been correctly set with the correct tools (if required) then at subsequent changes you do yourself you can (with knowledge/experience) judge if a full timing reset is required. Some require tools, earlier Fiat models were done on crank and pulley markings

Regarding tappet noise then I expect to hear a little as this is normal and means the gaps are not too close/small. No noise (by cylinder) = no or little gap and should be checked ASAP. Could be too late in worst cases.

Too noisy then the valve clearance gaps are too large and you should check. No rush or panic required on this but should be done at some point.

Regarding too much noise then our Starda Abarth 130TC has factory high lift cams. They were far more tappet y than normal Fiat engines so I've changed the settings to: 0.35 +/- 0.05mm for Inlet and 0.45 +/- 0.05mm Exhaust. The 0.05mm change does make quite a big change in the tappet noise.

As mentioned with hydraulic tappets then clearance checking is not possible however excessive noise means the tappets probably need replacing. If not replaced then no real problem except for feeling/sounding like you are driving a tractor

This is all knowledge built up over 52 years of working on my own Fiats.

 

[GrandePunto PL]

This is a part of scheduled maintenance, so it should be done (timing belt job is a perfect opportunity to check "lash"), regardless of feelings and opinions.
But, this is a "tip of the iceberg". Camshaft lobes can wear. The VVT operation can be spoiled by old hardened "o-rings" in the valve cover (if you never touch it, because you do timing without tools and skip the "lash" check, cause you assume it's stable in most cases except LPG, you will never know that there is a developing problem in the engine, until it's too late).

What else. The gearbox. Did you (all of you) knew, there is an adjustment inside the differential? The washer/shim (under the cap, short axle side). Bearings preload. This also should be done (check) every 5-10 years or so (OK, at least once in the vehicle's lifetime). No one does that.

Imagine that your car is in relatively good shape, so you refuse to take a MOT test, because you assume it will pass. Is that the "logic" here?

 

[vexorg]

Imagine that your car is in relatively good shape, so you refuse to take a MOT test, because you assume it will pass. Is that the "logic" here?

A slightly worn camshaft or diff won't make a car dangerous on the road, so the mot argument is not comparing like for like.

(And preloading a diff bearing is a pain to do in any car - gearbox in the car)

 

[GrandePunto PL]

Great example if you understand it. You selectively choose maintenance tasks as you feel they apply to the problem or not.
Original poster insisted, that this is engine problem, control, sensors, throttle. Therefore timing/valves/VVT idea (to check it).
Turned out to be pure mechanical problem (gearbox + mounts + clutch). It wasn't obvious at the beginning.
That all engine related advice is not applicable to the scenario (but you should not bash the idea of going through "check list").

Another example. Do you argue with doctor if he orders you to do some checks, like MRI, X-ray, blood test and so on?
Do you refuse, select, skip suggested tasks? No, you do all of them (regardless of how you feel about it).

Back to the subject. I did some lame quick "test". "Play" in the gearbox. Right wheel (long axle) off the ground.

Results (gear, play in centimeters).
1 - 5 cm
2 - 6 cm
3 - 8 cm
4 - 8,5 cm
5 - 10 cm
R - 5,5 cm

Example video (R gear).

Completely non-scientific (should be angular measurement), but we have something to compare now.

Stationary "test drive" (video is too big) was also done = no "jerking" like in the thread author case.

 

[robertzd]

Back to the subject. I did some lame quick "test". "Play" in the gearbox. Right wheel (long axle) off the ground.
View attachment 442615
Results (gear, play in centimeters).
1 - 5 cm
2 - 6 cm
3 - 8 cm
4 - 8,5 cm
5 - 10 cm
R - 5,5 cm

Example video (R gear).
View attachment 442616
Completely non-scientific (should be angular measurement), but we have something to compare now.

Stationary "test drive" (video is too big) was also done = no "jerking" like in the thread author case.

Thanks for this GrandePunto PL:
I will do the same for comparison.

 

[vexorg]

Another example. Do you argue with doctor if he orders you to do some checks, like MRI, X-ray, blood test and so on?
Do you refuse, select, skip suggested tasks? No, you do all of them (regardless of how you feel about it).

You make a good point, a doctor isn't usually a moron, so generally i wouldn't argue. But we have all had doctors that are.

 

[robertzd]

Why is always on some topic argument about something irrelevant. We all know we ’r all different and somebody pay more attention on some stuff, some on something else. Yeah, manual is written to do maintenance according to them. But I’m sure that even official service (garage) doesn’t fallow that procedure at all time. It’s not correct, we all know it, but that’s how it is. You can’t control all things service do to your’ s car.

 

[GrandePunto PL]

"Why"? Easy. Average/mediocre people are offended if you push them to do more, to pay more attention (there are more technical details to cover than they thought, therefore their cars are NOT properly maintained), you push them to think and learn more etc.

 

[s130]

This thread is getting a little off topic from the OP's original query / problem so lets keep to the original issue please and not dwell on "good servicing" vs "bad servicing" in this thread. - Moderator

 

[robertzd]

Today I did test with right wheel. I used two piece of wood, full straight.
I used level gauge to tape vertical wood in vertical position.
Wood on wheel in taped to center of wheel.
I put masking tape on wood, mark with pen then measure for every gear.
Here are the resaults:

Results (gear, play in centimeters).
1 – 5.5 cm
2 - 6 cm
3 - 7 cm
4 - 7,5 cm
5 – 8.5 cm
R - 5 cm

I know this is improvisation and not precise measurement but I would say mine measures are more consistent than your’s.
Maybe that play in diferential is so small it cant be measured like this? But cause big impact on drivetrain.

 

[GrandePunto PL]

So we go back to page 1.
Who (and how "professionally") did the clutch and engine/gearbox mounts. You must verify this personally.

If you're not experienced, you have no right to judge mounts just by looking at them installed in the car.
Unless they're ripped apart it can be hard to say (OK/NOK). But if you remove one, then it will be clear (it was bad).
Example video (mounts "looked OK", but there are cracks etc.): Video link, mounts.

The "test" shows, that mine g-box is probably worn more, but there is no "clunk/jerk" whatsoever like in your videos.
So what's (or where is) the difference between cars?

Example (what could be wrong, resulting in violent operation of the clutch).

FiatPunto Poland again: http://fiatpunto.com.pl/post860319.html#p860319

PS
As an amateurs/hobbyists, we have no better "tests" (the point was to spot excessive "play" in one of the cars). Next thing is what...remove the gearbox and inspect it (and the clutch)?
OP claims, that suspension/mounts "are OK". What else is there, CV joints/axles...probably "OK" too(?).

 

[vexorg]

Not really sure what the wheel test thing was doing, every car I've had (with no gearbox problem) moves that way in a clunky manner