Technical Help diagnose issue with Ducato

[arnelis]

Hi, I'm having some problems with Ducato 2015, 2.3 130 Multijet.

The first problem is engine jerking when changing gears. Changed bad engine mount but issue still persists, though it jerks less, but still too much, even in lower gears like from 3rd to 4th. Is that acceptable, does it happen for all Ducatos, or is it a problem? Maybe it is related with the problem below?

The second and the biggest problem is rough engine work. Most often it happens when starting cold.

1. Throws a lot of white smoke with strong diesel smell. Clears up in few minutes.
2. Feels like struggling on idle. Similar feeling like idle hunting, but RPMs are constant and do not flactuate. Starts working normally in few minutes.
3. When accelerating and changing gears from 1st to 2nd, RPMs drops very slowly. Need to wait a second or two to release clutch since RPMs are too high for the next gear.
4. When driving and depressing the clutch, for example coming to a stop, RPMs drop down to idle RPMs (~900) and then jumps up to like ~1200 and then back to regular idle RPMs.

Sometimes no symptoms appear, and sometimes few of them appears at once.

No power loss whatsoever. No engine light. Connected to body computer and no errors were found which could be related to these issues. Went to garage, they couldn't find anything.

Any ideas?

 

[bugsymike]

The first problem could be a badly worn Dual Mass Flywheel with lots of slack in the springs.Has vehicle done a lot of miles?
White smoke from cold can be heater plugs so check that area first but could be low compression on engine especially if done a lot of miles.
Does it use oil etc.?

 

[arnelis]

The first problem could be a badly worn Dual Mass Flywheel with lots of slack in the springs.Has vehicle done a lot of miles?
White smoke from cold can be heater plugs so check that area first but could be low compression on engine especially if done a lot of miles.
Does it use oil etc.?

Not much, 90000 miles. Not using oil or coolant. I’ll check around heater plugs area, but white smoke is not persistent. Wouldn’t I get white smoke on all all cold starts if heater plugs are bad?

 

[bugsymike]

Not much, 90000 miles. Not using oil or coolant. I’ll check around heater plugs area, but white smoke is not persistent. Wouldn’t I get white smoke on all all cold starts if heater plugs are bad?

90K doesn't sound excessive.
Usually there would as you say be signs of white smoke most cold mornings, whether heater plugs or engine compressions.
I suppose dripping injectors may be a cause,
Any smell of diesel in the engine oil or signs of dilution?
Basically white smoke is unburnt fuel generally, unless of course it is trying to do a Regen if applicable with your vehicle, thast can give white choking smoke but doesn't smell of diesel as with the other suggestions.

 

[arnelis]

90K doesn't sound excessive.
Usually there would as you say be signs of white smoke most cold mornings, whether heater plugs or engine compressions.
I suppose dripping injectors may be a cause,
Any smell of diesel in the engine oil or signs of dilution?
Basically white smoke is unburnt fuel generally, unless of course it is trying to do a Regen if applicable with your vehicle, thast can give white choking smoke but doesn't smell of diesel as with the other suggestions.

Thank you for suggestions, I’ll check for diesel in oil and will try to do injector leak off test soon.

I had clouds of white smoke a few times when car was hot. There was no regen light but I though that was regen as white smoke cleared after few minutes, which by looking at the posts on the forum, is expected. What is not expected, is white smoke on cold start, which couldn’t be regen, since it doesn’t regen when engine is cold.

As for engine jerking during gear change, I should be more clear. It happens only when accelerator is fully released or depressed again. I don’t need to change gear or depress clutch for jerk to happen. If I don’t release the accelerator fully, I can quickly depress it fully and there is no jerking, no grinding and no other bad flywheel symptoms. Could it still be flywheel?

It is exactly the same jerk when you release / depress accelerator quickly on manual car in 1st gear. It just happens not only on 1st gear but even in lower ones. Engine jerk on lower gears is smaller than on higher ones, but still noticeable.

 

[arnelis]

Another interesting thing from MES. I checked the values for Intake Air Quantity and Desired Intake Air Quantity. Stationary, when RPMs are around 3500, Intake Air Quantity is 749 and Desired Intake Air Quantity is 1600. Could it be related to engine issues? It is strange that actual air quantity is 2x smaller than desired

 

[bugsymike]

Thank you for suggestions, I’ll check for diesel in oil and will try to do injector leak off test soon.

I had clouds of white smoke a few times when car was hot. There was no regen light but I though that was regen as white smoke cleared after few minutes, which by looking at the posts on the forum, is expected. What is not expected, is white smoke on cold start, which couldn’t be regen, since it doesn’t regen when engine is cold.

As for engine jerking during gear change, I should be more clear. It happens only when accelerator is fully released or depressed again. I don’t need to change gear or depress clutch for jerk to happen. If I don’t release the accelerator fully, I can quickly depress it fully and there is no jerking, no grinding and no other bad flywheel symptoms. Could it still be flywheel?

It is exactly the same jerk when you release / depress accelerator quickly on manual car in 1st gear. It just happens not only on 1st gear but even in lower ones. Engine jerk on lower gears is smaller than on higher ones, but still noticeable.

Leak off test may not show if injectors are dribbling as leaking into the cylinder rather that into the injector return pipes.
I did have a Citroen with a very badly blocked DPF filter that smoked white from cold but I agree it is not the normal situation. On that one I removed and cleaned the DPF then told ECU it was new and that sorted that on out.
Re the jerking if you have eliminated engine and gearbox stabiliser mounts, suspension lose, etc. then the things that give a jerk when on and off the throttle without touching the clutch are usually Dual Mass Flywheel or drive shaft faults.
With engine off and in gear you may be able to feel if flywheel by putting a socket and bar on the crank pulley to see if any excess movement.
Don't turn engine backwards etc just try and rock the free play.

 

[bugsymike]

Another interesting thing from MES. I checked the values for Intake Air Quantity and Desired Intake Air Quantity. Stationary, when RPMs are around 3500, Intake Air Quantity is 749 and Desired Intake Air Quantity is 1600. Could it be related to engine issues? It is strange that actual air quantity is 2x smaller than desired

I don't use MES so don't know , others on Forum are more familiar with the readings from that.

 

[arnelis]

Leak off test may not show if injectors are dribbling as leaking into the cylinder rather that into the injector return pipes.
I did have a Citroen with a very badly blocked DPF filter that smoked white from cold but I agree it is not the normal situation. On that one I removed and cleaned the DPF then told ECU it was new and that sorted that on out.
Re the jerking if you have eliminated engine and gearbox stabiliser mounts, suspension lose, etc. then the things that give a jerk when on and off the throttle without touching the clutch are usually Dual Mass Flywheel or drive shaft faults.
With engine off and in gear you may be able to feel if flywheel by putting a socket and bar on the crank pulley to see if any excess movement.
Don't turn engine backwards etc just try and rock the free play.

Thanks, I’ll try to check gearbox mounts. The engine mount problem was identified by the garage after I notified them about jerking issue. Not sure whether they checked gearbox mounts / suspension. They also changed the timing belt, I guess they would have noticed the flywheel problem, especially after I pointed out an issue.

Actually I did force regen for DPF. Pressure is around 10mbar on idle, which is acceptable. Anyways, cleaning DPF, MAF, EGR is on my list.

As for desired air intake quantity higher than actual, there could be two issues which I can find being commented on the forum. One is bad actual intake air quantity calculation by MAF sensor, which could be checked by cleaning the sensor. Another one is bad MAP sensor, which could ask for more air than actually needed. It would make sense that one or these sensors are calculating wrong values, since I don’t think the engine would run pretty well when actual air is 2x smaller than desired.

 

[bugsymike]

On the smaller Fiats the dog leg gearbox mounting is a common cause of knocks and engine moving around, it is the stabiliser mount at the bottom back of the gearbox to the subframe if similar to your vehicle.
Fitting a cambelt will not show dual mass flywheel movement.

 

[theoneandonly]

As for desired air intake quantity higher than actual, there could be two issues which I can find being commented on the forum. One is bad actual intake air quantity calculation by MAF sensor, which could be checked by cleaning the sensor. Another one is bad MAP sensor, which could ask for more air than actually needed. It would make sense that one or these sensors are calculating wrong values, since I don’t think the engine would run pretty well when actual air is 2x smaller than desired.

Apart from cleaning MAF and MAP sensors (MAP my favourite for this issue) the other thing to look at is the turbo vacuum solenoid this can be tested with MES and can be used to check the turbo actuactor rod as well (visual)

Turbo solenoid test

This discusses the option to test the (turbo solenoid)boost valve in MultiEcuScan.

www.fiatforum.com

 

[arnelis]

Checked injector codes on the injectors itself and in the MAS. They do match so they are programmed correctly. The part numbers itself are also correct.

Took another look at engine stats on MAS. Seems like intake air quantity is normal now without cleaning anything. What is interesting is the injector corrections. All 4 cylinders do not add up to 0 and sometimes it is even -2. Shouldn't it be 0? Engine was having like a knock on idle, RPMs didn't flactuate on dash but you could feel the slight change in RPMs and vibrations. Also white smoke, but mostly when pressing throttle.

Idle, cold engine. Adds up to -2.31. Injector 1 is underfueling, Injectors 2, 3, 4 are overfueling.

~2100 RPM, cold engine. Adds up to -0.87. Injector 1 is underfueling, Injectors 2, 3, 4 are overfueling.

In both cases only injector 1 is underfueling and the overall correction is in negative (overfuelling). That would kind of make sense since the outside temperature was low and the engine was cold during the test. But I'm not sure that having any sum (adding up all injector corrections) other than 0 is right.

Any ideas? Could the injector 1 be faulty?

 

[theoneandonly]

Yes injector corrections should add up to zero.
If you can post a csv file or graph of 5 minutes and a warm engine it will be easier to compare and comment.

Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis.

This was originally written to help one person with his Ducato totally new to MES to start saving data. it is not an exhaustive manual nor intended to be. Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis. Open...

www.fiatforum.com

An example graph of my engine

 

[theoneandonly]

Another interesting thing from MES. I checked the values for Intake Air Quantity and Desired Intake Air Quantity. Stationary, when RPMs are around 3500, Intake Air Quantity is 749 and Desired Intake Air Quantity is 1600. Could it be related to engine issues? It is strange that actual air quantity is 2x smaller than desired

Could you do a run with warm engine and record the rpm,air qty desired and actual and turbo desired and actual.save the csv file and ill create the graphs and see whats going on. Add the injector values to be collected as well

 

[arnelis]

Could you do a run with warm engine and record the rpm,air qty desired and actual and turbo desired and actual.save the csv file and ill create the graphs and see whats going on. Add the injector values to be collected as well

I read somewhere that I should keep ~2000 RPMs during the test, is that right?

 

[theoneandonly]

I read somewhere that I should keep ~2000 RPMs during the test, is that right?

THe prefered would be at least 10 mins at 60mph but also including a few wide open throttle pulls from low rpm in 3rd. Warm engine , if done from cold in clude engine temp in list of pids.

 

[arnelis]

Did fuel leak off test. Cold engine, ambient temperature around 4C. Test duration was 60 seconds.

It seems that injector 1 and 3 are perfect and returned around 25ml
Injector 2 returned 70ml.
Injector 4 returned 40ml.

As I understand, injector 2 needs replacing. What about injector 4? It's still "good" or I should also change it?

 

[bugsymike]

Did fuel leak off test. Cold engine, ambient temperature around 4C. Test duration was 60 seconds.

It seems that injector 1 and 3 are perfect and returned around 25ml
Injector 2 returned 70ml.
Injector 4 returned 40ml.

As I understand, injector 2 needs replacing. What about injector 4? It's still "good" or I should also change it?

View attachment 457587

No2 at least .

 

[theoneandonly]

No2 at least .

I agree. Repeat the test with a warm engine. If simular or worse replace 2 and 4

 

[arnelis]

Replaced injector #2 and programmed it using MES. Did the test again on cold engine.

Injectors 1 and 3 returned ~35ml
Injector 2 (new) returned ~15ml
Injector 4 returned ~50ml

Does the new injector (2) return correct amount? Shouldn’t it return around the same amount as 1 and 3 injectors?

Still getting white smoke and knocking. Thinking of replacing injector 4, but the injectors 0445110418 are now out of stock and discontinued. It appears it was replaced by part number 0445110520 but I read on forum that it cannot be programmed using MES?