Technical Head Gasket :( 2010 Panda 1.1 Eco Active 52k

[Rosstbeef]

My first post and a bit of a bad news.

It looks like the first fiat I've ever owned has gone and dropped its head gasket and I'm only 2.5k miles into ownership! When I bought it I noticed the coolant was on the low side but as it was owned by a 70 year old lady I thought that might be down to a slight lack of maintenance between services.
I did an MOT history check before buying the car and noticed the EML had been on during an MOT previously but it could be unrelated to this issue. I haven't had it come on since I've owned the car.

Anyway here are the symtoms:

For a month or so now I've noticed it occasionally fire on three cylinders from cold. Blip the throttle a bit and it clears and runs smoothly after for the whole journey and may not appear again for several more cold starts.
I've been having to top the coolant up on a bi-weekly basis so I knew something was up but cannot see any signs of external leakage.

Lots of sloshing in the dashboard/heater matrix especially at start up when revved.

The firing on three has got worse over the last week, i.e. on most cold starts and during one journey also. On the return from work today there was a definite, large plume of white smoke when I first started it as the throttle was depressed to clear the firing on three and it continued for about 100m of road after, then stopped.

I changed the spark plugs a couple of weeks ago and noticed the old plug on no.4 cylinder looked a bit wet and possibly steam cleaned. I took the new plug out again last weekend and compared it to that on No.1 cylinder and again it looked wet and steam cleaned in comparison.

So what I'm guessing is that the HG has gone and the coolant is leaking slowly into cylinder No.4 while parked up. I can't think of any other explanation.

There isn't any mayo in the oil. I changed it last weekend and couldn't see any. The coolant remains nice and pink.

I'm planning to run a compression test to see if there's any difference for No.4. I might even rig something up to my compressor to see if I can get bubbles out of the expansion tank. Or maybe I've diagnosed it enough and just crack on with it!

Basically this post is just to seek confirmation from others please . Also it will hopefully help out others diagnose their HG failures in the future if they get the same symptoms. I'm planning to do the work myself as I've done several HGs in the past. I'll post up the outcome when I get to the bottom of the problem.

 

[koalar]

Normally if coolant is getting into the cylinder. Combustion gasses can be smelt in the expansion tank and hose instantly go firm from start up. Over time scum builds up on the surface of the coolant.

I have had plums of smoke this last week. So have many others. Cold foggy weather.


Steam cleaned plugs normally look like new and fairly obvious.


Could well be a misfire and flooded cylinder clears when you rev it.



Compression test is definitely the way to go. Or even better remove the spark plugs and pressurized the coolant system and see if coolant enters the cylinders. Saves all the it could be this that and the other.

 

[martroy]

You might just get away with retorquing the head, the damage has probably already been done but worth a try.

 

[bluejohn125]

Yes compression test is the obvious way to go. If it is the HG then as long as you don't leave it till it completely cooks itself a FIRE HG replacement (with or without a skim) is very straightforward.

Souns like you've definitely lost coolant (gurgling, steam etc.).

 

[Wee Smurf]

I had a hairline crack in the head gasket in my old car at an early age. I lost coolant at that type of rate. As I caught it early, no damage was done and I was able to just get the gasket changed with no other work. Don't drive too far with it like that or you could end up with more work.

 

[varesecrazy]

Rosstbeef.
Hi.and welcome. Its a simple test for compression..
Then pressure test the cooling system..double check carpets are dry..!!

HG is pretty easy..allow a day

But costs@10 quid..as bolts are reuseable

Due to a matrix leak..I did 2 x HG in a year.

So 2nd was Gasket..and bolts..still under 50 quid.

Cars been fine since.

Look in the GUIDES for the basics.

Charlie. Oxford

 

[Rosstbeef]

Thanks for all the responses so quickly, lovely to see.


Ignition did cross my mind as has heater matrix after reading other forum posts before posting. I don't believe it is ignition as it's only really been on startup I get the running on three. I will double check the matrix.


I'll go parts shopping today and also get a Haynes for torque wrench setting etc.


Are there any recommended brands of head gaskets for Fiats or ones to avoid?? I'm used to Vdubs. Will look to shop at Eurocarparts, GSF or maybe the main stealers?


Is it best to leave the manifolds on, so you don't need to replace the manifold gaskets? If the head needs a skim then I guess they'll need to come off anyway. Just wondering if I will need other parts other than the HG itself? I've seen the top rad hose has a factory use only once type clip on it.


Thanks,


Ross

 

[varesecrazy]

I use a basic ebay gasket 10 delivered
From aap oldham

NEVER needed to skim an 8 v head.
See my old posts for the tightening technique.

I leave inlet attached..just fuel line and few sensor cables to come off.

Exhaust manifold.drop that with downpipe still attached.

Again..GUIDES have lots of info..cinq/sei is same engine too.

 

[Rosstbeef]

Think I'll get an elring gasket set from GSF as its the only thing in stock locally at the min. Waiting for a hefty discount code to hopefully appear by the end of the day but otherwise I've got a code to bring it down to £44.42. At least with a whole set I'll be prepared for the worst!
I like elring, usually do good stuff for the vdubs and I've used their HGs before, much better quality than others. My brother had a Polo and that needed its HG done again due to a cheaper brand. Was fine once the elring was fitted.
Want to get something today as everything's going to be closed over xmas, not that I'll probably get a chance to do the work while everything's shut anyway!

 

[irc]

Only needed to skim an 8v head once, and that had already been "repaired" twice (before I got it).
Used a cool gismo to confirm it was the head gasket - combustion leak tester kit. Was about £10 from eBay, and was a little plastic chamber, bottle of liquid and a squeezy ball with a pipe.
Needed to prove it to myself, as had 2 receipts saying it had been fixed. Used a genuine head gasket too. Probably overkill.

All other ones I just got a generic gasket and swapped it.
Easy job, none gave problems after.

 

[Rosstbeef]

Thanks for the advice and everyone else's too.
I have a USB endoscope that will fit in the spark plug hole to look for water in the cylinder plus I have a oil/fluid extraction pump I can use if for some reason I can't find the driver disk for the scope.

 

[tonyn]

Rosstbeef,
I have all the same symptoms you describe with my 2004 1.1 Active, 44,000mls
I suspected ,feared it was the head gasket!
Is it a "big job" to change the head gasket? I am fairly handy with a spanner, but have never attempted a Head gasket job before now.
If possible, can you keep me up to date with your progress, and the why's and wherefores of the job please?
Thanks
Tony

 

[DaveMcT]

You might just get away with retorquing the head, the damage has probably already been done but worth a try.

Don't bother. A blown cylinder head gasket is either or OK or leaking. This one's leaking. Remove the head, check the joint faces are 100% flat and if necessary have the head joint face skimmed.

Simply chucking in a new gasket is gambling with having to do the job again.

Also fix the coolant leak or you'll be doing it yet again.

Google comes in handy
https://www.fiatforum.com/uno/109796-how-change-head-gasket.html

 

[Rosstbeef]

Well I changed the gasket yesterday and finished putting things back together this morning. It seems to be running fine so far although its too soon to really tell. I've only driven it about 20 miles.

The one problem I do have is the cam belt is whining so even though following the Haynes manual for that particular belt tensioner. It is tighter than before removal, when I thought it seemed too loose. I marked its position prior to removal so I can put it back in that position if necessary.


Been trying to get images to work but realise now I need to post 5 times before I can post URLs so excuse me...

 

[Rosstbeef]

Ahh that's 5 posts now so I can start imaging....

Anyone got any advise on the adjustment on this particular type of tensioner please?

 

[Rosstbeef]

More info on the cam belt.
I know it was replaced recently by the previous owner including the water pump, and the tensioner looks new too. The direction of travel on the belt is in the wrong direction so I should replace it, but for now as I didn't have a new one I just refitted it in the same wrong direction of travel to avoid putting any stress on the belt. I marked the position of the belt on the pulleys prior to removal so it went back in exactly the same position, on the same teeth on the pulleys.

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Here's the block with the old gasket stuck to it. No1 and especially No4 had gasket damage up to the fire ring from a nearby coolant passage. It didn't look that bad but hopefully this was the cause. The head bolts didn't seem that tight for head bolts but maybe it's just cos I'm used to working on larger engines.

The new elring head gasket has extensions of the fire ring up towards the coolant passages that so maybe it was a slight design improvement for a known weakness :shrug:







Here's the head...


No4 piston crown and the valve area on the head had different carbon deposits to the others and they cleaned off very easily with petrol so partially steam cleaned I guess.

It seemed straight enough to refit without a skim (just stuck a steel rule up against it) so I cleaned it and the block carefully with Stanley blade, petrol and a bit of nylon scotchbright making sure nothing much at all went into the oil/coolant passages. I also hoovered out the bores and oilways, bolt holes, etc also! Hopefully it isn't cracked internally but I think this is unlikely.

I reused the head bolts as I could see they had fitted once before at factory. First thoroughly cleaning them and lightly oiling them.

The GSF gasket kit wasn't for a Panda, was for a Punto. I'll be having words with them as although the HG was ok, along with the thermostat gasket and exhaust gasket, none of the other gaskets in the kit I needed were correct. So I had to reuse the old cam cover gasket, inlet manifold gaskets. I reckon the old inlet manifold gaskets will be fine but I'm expecting the cam cover to leak oil just cos I know how fickle these can be. There were two in the kit but neither had the O ring protruding from them.



Other tips:

• I used a long screwdriver poked into spark plug hole No1 to find TDC before removing the cam belt. Not that I needed it as I'd marked where the belt sits on the pulleys. I just found it in case I needed it later.
• I removed both inlet and exhaust manifolds.
• I removed the thermostat from the head, just so I didn't have to find jubilee clips to replace the factory hose clips.
• It was pretty fiddly with all the electrics from sensors and injectors to disconnect and move out of the way.
• Space is a bit tight when removing the engine mounting.
• The bottom aux belt pulley bolts I thought I would struggle to undo but they are only 25NM tight so I could hold the pulley with my hand to stop it turning while undoing the bolts. I didn't remove the belt first either! That meant I didn't need to adjust the alternator at all as I could slip the pulley back on with the belt in place when refitting.
• I needed quite a variety of sockets and ratchets from several sizes of socket sets to gain a good purchase on certain nuts and bolts. socket sizes 8,10,12,13,15,16,17 spring to mind.
• And finally, don't leave your dog unattended in the house while doing work on your car else it could eat your mum's home made xmas cake!

 

[s and b]

hi
you should never reuse an old belt as they wear in so will be noisy unless you are lucky
they arent dear but only buy what the trade would fit, not rubbish in a white box

 

[bluejohn125]

Sounds like you've done a decent job overall, personally I would have turned the belt around so it's correct, also check that the tensioner is spinning smoothly (bearings) as it may not have been changed with the belt.

There is a very comprehensive video in changing a 500 / Ka 1.2 cambelt and water pump in the 500 Guides section, that explains how to set up the tensioner and all of the many other complex tasks that seem to be needed to do this job!

 

[varesecrazy]

TBH - the gasket didn't look bad.. I've has far worse.

I've never removed the inlet side - no point unless you're determined to skim it..

well done for cleaning out the baffle plate.

no idea on the tensioner..at a GUESS I'd think those 2 x slot/ finger features should line up..??
https://www.fiatforum.com/500-guides/420525-replacing-water-pump-timing-belt-1-2l-engine.html

and bad luck with the cake..

Charlie
may be covered here =

 

[DaveMcT]

A noisy cam belt wont last long and these belts don't like being reused. Thankfully its a safe engine. For what they cost just fit a new one.

IIRC the cam belt tension is correct when you can twist the long length by 90 degrees. Alternatively use the correct tool.

Any older car regardless of miles is at risk of coolant leaks. If the radiator is doubtful then change it. Much less expensive than a new head gasket. You could also add an internal leak sealant like Barrs Leaks. It wont clog the engine but it will plug pinhole leaks in the radiator.

The steel pipe along the front of the engine corrodes out of sight. It's a common source of leaks hidden away until its too late.