Technical Gearbox rattle while idling + whine

[berlinasportiva]

Hi,

So new thing to me after changing inner driveshaft ( driver side) as bearing decided to disintegrate ( I’ll post photos and videos after) I’m still stuck with 2 issues:
- gearbox rattle when cold and idling ( when wet too but could hear it less)
- whine while driving about 50mph
Am I correct suspecting main shaft bearings and diff bearings?
I plan to change oil to Fuchs ( as it’s c635 gearbox) but it won’t cure whine I guess.

Any nice diagnostic procedure please? I’m not that good with FWD gearboxes.
And last one, maybe somebody in Yorkshire with similar car, who’s willing to let me come along and listen to theirs? I can bribe you with sweets and alcohol to ease the pain of dealing with myself

Alternatively south or east London where I’ll go for some jobs soon. ( or anything between Leeds and Deptford)

I’ll record videos and post them later.

 

[bugsymike]

Hi,

So new thing to me after changing inner driveshaft ( driver side) as bearing decided to disintegrate ( I’ll post photos and videos after) I’m still stuck with 2 issues:
- gearbox rattle when cold and idling ( when wet too but could hear it less)
- whine while driving about 50mph
Am I correct suspecting main shaft bearings and diff bearings?
I plan to change oil to Fuchs ( as it’s c635 gearbox) but it won’t cure whine I guess.

Any nice diagnostic procedure please? I’m not that good with FWD gearboxes.
And last one, maybe somebody in Yorkshire with similar car, who’s willing to let me come along and listen to theirs? I can bribe you with sweets and alcohol to ease the pain of dealing with myself

Alternatively south or east London where I’ll go for some jobs soon. ( or anything between Leeds and Deptford)

I’ll record videos and post them later.

If noise as you describe when cold in neutral and tickover slow it is "chattering" but disappears as you bring revs up or dip clutch, then to me it sounds like idler/lay gear wear.
The trouble is it usually corresponds with main shaft gears etc. By the time bearings etc. have been replaced not a cheap job.
In the old days we always rebuilt gearboxes, until all the "specialists" came along in the late 70s and undercut our prices killing the market, we couldn't understand how they could be so competitive until we found they were robbing bits from other boxes to make, refitting old bearings etc. and their warranties were not honoured, but as people buy on price we gave up!

 

[berlinasportiva]

If noise as you describe when cold in neutral and tickover slow it is "chattering" but disappears as you bring revs up or dip clutch, then to me it sounds like idler/lay gear wear.
The trouble is it usually corresponds with main shaft gears etc. By the time bearings etc. have been replaced not a cheap job.
In the old days we always rebuilt gearboxes, until all the "specialists" came along in the late 70s and undercut our prices killing the market, we couldn't understand how they could be so competitive until we found they were robbing bits from other boxes to make, refitting old bearings etc. and their warranties were not honoured, but as people buy on price we gave up!

That may be it. I’ll try upload videos tonight and maybe you can tell me. Car got 3rd party warranty which so far has been spot on but happy to have full gearbox rebuild if needed at my cost. Car stays with me for life so…may as well give them some love

 

[bugsymike]

That may be it. I’ll try upload videos tonight and maybe you can tell me. Car got 3rd party warranty which so far has been spot on but happy to have full gearbox rebuild if needed at my cost. Car stays with me for life so…may as well give them some love

You may find the warranty small print will describe that fault as wear and tear and not a item breaking, so not covered.
If you have to have it repaired at "specialist" I suggest you do due diligence, check it is a place with a good name in the trade and a decent warranty on their work.

 

[berlinasportiva]

Sorry just quick recording didn’t really have time… can do better tomorrow

And longer

Hope you can hear anything

 

[bugsymike]

Certainly quite noisy.
Normally I just sit in the car idling, then dip the clutch so less external noise, to hear it.
If it was on a garage ramp it is easier to put your hand on the gearbox and feel it or use a screwdriver as a stethoscope against your ear to locate the area the noise is coming from.

 

[berlinasportiva]

I even have pro automotive stethoscope I’ll try record better one without undertray and one from inside

 

[bugsymike]

I even have pro automotive stethoscope I’ll try record better one without undertray and one from inside

I have also , but the screwdriver method has worked for 50 odd years.
If dipping the clutch stops the noise then all you have to do is locate the general area of gearbox, but at the end of the day not a cheap repair.

 

[berlinasportiva]

Seems like rather back than clutch end for me…

 

[bugsymike]

Seems like rather back than clutch end for me…

Exactly, so if clutch pedal to the floor then no gears are turning in gearbox.
If noise changes just by resting foot on clutch pedal a bit then it can be release bearing area or even dual mass flywheel, but if pedal to the floor then gearbox.

 

[berlinasportiva]

I didn’t do rest on the pedal test will do tomorrow. What about whine at around 50mph regardless gear? Diff bearings?

 

[bugsymike]

I didn’t do rest on the pedal test will do tomorrow. What about whine at around 50mph regardless gear? Diff bearings?

Wheel bearings will gradually increase with road speed rather than load and may change as you corner if a front bearing.
Diff bearings and diff gears are more load related although increase with speed. However if you have noise when stationary that is gearbox rather than diff. To be honest from what you are saying the gearbox/transaxle/diff assemble is well worn.
Worn diff gears make a different noise depending on if accelerating or on the over run as in on or off the throttle

 

[berlinasportiva]

Wheel bearings will gradually increase with road speed rather than load and may change as you corner if a front bearing.
Diff bearings and diff gears are more load related although increase with speed. However if you have noise when stationary that is gearbox rather than diff. To be honest from what you are saying the gearbox/transaxle/diff assemble is well worn.
Worn diff gears make a different noise depending on if accelerating or on the over run as in on or off the throttle

Front bearings out of equation, brand new.
It wired for this gearbox to die so quick. Also fact that driveshaft bearing die ( I mean really bad) it’s weird to. Whine is only under load

 

[bugsymike]

Front bearings out of equation, brand new.
It wired for this gearbox to die so quick. Also fact that driveshaft bearing die ( I mean really bad) it’s weird to. Whine is only under load

If you only recently purchased the vehicle it does sound suspicious. You may need to take independent advice.
Unrelated to your issue but I bought a vehicle at auction and gear selection grated on most of the gears, on checking the oil it was emulsified and creamy, so I suspect flood damage was the problem there.
BFN

 

[berlinasportiva]

Drained pile from gearbox cluster clear nothing on magnet test either… amount drained was right (1.7l) apparently advice is to overfill it with Fuchs up to 2.2l which is my next idea. Still 2 owners from new. And so on. Everything else ( engine suspension) is perfect

 

[berlinasportiva]

If you only recently purchased the vehicle it does sound suspicious. You may need to take independent advice.
Unrelated to your issue but I bought a vehicle at auction and gear selection grated on most of the gears, on checking the oil it was emulsified and creamy, so I suspect flood damage was the problem there.
BFN

Right and mentioned before driveshaft bearing.

 

[berlinasportiva]

An update. Car is at the workshop. You diagnosis seem correct so we have both diff bearings as well as idle shaft bearings. Disassemble is underway today and tomorrow. Will update as soon as I know. It’s 59k miles gearbox factory sealed…ffs that’s **** quality to be fair…

 

[berlinasportiva]

and to add on. il is perfectly clear, no metal bits at all, no problem with gear change, no problem with stiff gear lever operation, oil level correct, nothing at all. Just unjustifiably low quality of parts..... Sequence of failures was probably
1.Diff bearing play
2. Small oil leak (more like mist as only 50ml of oil was missing from factory fill amount) via main shaft seal (clutch side)
3. Terrible fail of iddleshaft bearings (3/4 of the noise)
4. Driveshaft bearing fail as result of diff bearing fail (already rectified). You can't buy just bearing only 1/2 driveshaft at....£630. Oe only....Insuracne paid though.
5. Possible small play at DMF (to be confirmed)

I shall have full report by tomorrow morning...

On the other hand my Alfa with 206k miles on clock, still have original gearbox (M40 along with all the bits for 4x4) which is silent as new. And it's dealing with 600nM of torque for last 160k miles...marvelous...

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

My heart bleeds for you berlinasportiva. As Mike will know, the gearbox in my previous car - 2016 SEAT Ibiza 1.0 litre - suffered a dif bearing (crown wheel) break up while we were traveling down to Devon a couple of years ago. We managed to complete the journey but only just. The noise was most distressing for someone with a "mechanical ear". The very excellent Seat Main dealer - Croyde Motors - drained the gearbox oil for us the next day and it resembled one of those Christmas glitter balls. It was obvious that the metal bits had circulated throughout the box so I decided to just go with a genuine manufacturer rebuilt box. Not cheap but there wasn't a local option for rebuilding at any sort of a competitive price. The garage, which I tend to use when we are down there (yearly visit to relatives) gave me a third off the price of the labour and SEAT gave us a third off the price of the box as we are long term VAG customers, which somewhat sugared the bitter pill. The car had only done 30,000 miles and never abused. Luck of the draw, just a bad bearing, or maybe damaged during assembly?

I agree with you Mike regarding the screwdriver "listening stick" I too have a proper stethoscope but tend to just reach for my favourite long thin screwdriver - the screwdriver lives in my tool chest whereas the stethoscope hangs up on my tool board at the back of the garage. This, together with my "listening tube" have served me well for diagnosing noises for many years. I think you need both a "stick" and a "tube" as there are noises which are more easily confirmed with a listening tube which you can't with a listening stick and vice versa

 

[berlinasportiva]

And update (not complete though)

We have confirmed what's shot so far :
- Diff bearings
- Driveshaft seal (NSF)
- Idle shaft bearings
- 90% to much play in diff gears.
Wonderful quality it is....

Plus side, insurance is looking towards brand new gearbox along with clutch and DMF (yet given Fiat "quality" I may be rather towards proper rebuild...

It's in the worse state that my Alfa 75 gearbox with 320k miles on it (and those who know, will know how hard sychros and bearings works in transaxle)