Technical Fuel leak from rear arch, from this black box.

[The Panda Nut]

I have had two solenoid and the cannisters went too and the cost from Fiat was eye watering. The first time it was warranty. The second time less than a year later it was only partly warranty and almost certainly bad fitting or more likely a faulty part. Im still smarting two years on!!! All this crap fitted to make the cars clean ha ha. Except all this euro 3,4,5,6 b****** seems to have been one massive fraud and pretty well a total waste of time. And I dont overfill the tank so unsure what the causes were. Its the only real problem we have suffered with Pandas over many years and miles. Euro emissions standards MY ****!!!! Bureaucrats printing themseleves money! teast since done the car has run well and can do an easy 60mpg on a run.

 

[jrkitching]

Except all this euro 3,4,5,6 b****** seems to have been one massive fraud and pretty well a total waste of time.

Well, it's certainly being used by an increasing number of local authorities as a means of generating revenue.

I have had two solenoid and the cannisters went too

As well as being complex, these systems are usually engineered down to the bare minimum; I have serious concerns about the long term effect on both reliability and maintainability. And a system which might just about produce a small emission saving when the vehicle is new may be next to useless once it's a few years old. If the net result is that a car ends up being replaced sooner than would otherwise be the case, then any marginal environmental benefits gained during its lifetime will be dwarfed by the massive environemental cost of producing a complete new vehicle.

 

[koalar]

Does @BigAdam have a problem or not

They are asking how to put the covers back.

After owning 3 high milage panda without a problem around this area I am at a loss as to the next logical step

As I see it it’s leaked once it will do it again

 

[jrkitching]

I couldn’t work out why the need for
So much complications

I'd agree; the EVAP system is complicated - I'll try to summarise what we know so far:

-the system contains a number of valves and at least one solenoid intended to deal with vapour rather than liquid

-there are two float valves in the tank specifically to stop liquid fuel reaching those components

-@koalar 's link says the EVAP components are intentionally placed above the level fuel would normally reach

- the handbook warns against dribbling fuel into the tank after the second cutoff of an automatic dispensing pump

-from the diagram in @koalar 's link, if fuel remains in the filler pipe after fuelling (as it would if you dribble it in until it's visible in the filler neck), then that fuel will be above the level of the EVAP components

-how that fuel might find its way back into the EVAP system is not known yet, but I'd not be surprised if it can backflow through the venting system.

Getting liquid fuel into valves & seals designed to handle vapour isn't a great idea; apart from swelling the seals, fuel leaves a sticky, gummy residue when it evaporates, which could cause those valves & solenoid to stick or otherwise not function correctly. Also I'd not expect the charcoal canister to work too well after being immersed. So (particularly in view of the cost of the EVAP components) however tempting it might be to dribble in fuel, I'd suggest owners heed the handbook warning.

For the OP, I'd suggest that you lower the fuel level now to the normal filling point (about 5-7 litres less than the absolute maximum that can be dribbled in). Then monitor it closely; it may still weep for a short time, but should stop once the fuel that isn't where it's supposed to be has evaporated. Then, with crossed fingers, keep a watchful eye on it until you're sure all is well again.

 

[jrkitching]

Does @BigAdam have a problem or not

They are asking how to put the covers back.

After owning 3 high milage panda without a problem around this area I am at a loss as to the next logical step

As I see it it’s leaked once it will do it again

I'm still unsure.

If the fuel has leaked into a part of the system it wouldn't normally have reached because of overfilling, then once it's gone, the issue might be resolved (provided it's not overfilled again).

If there's a leaking joint anywhere fuel would normally be present if filled as per the handbook, then it will leak again and there is an outstanding issue which needs to be sorted.

I'd leave the covers off until we know which of the two scenarios we're dealing with.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Interesting thread, I'm enjoying following it. can't think of anything of great import to add. However we should be aware that the sealing of the fuel cap is important. If it fails to seal properly it can cause some strange running problems - so check the seal at every service and make sure it's properly fitted when filling up. Many manufacturers have tried to ensure this by fitting a torque limiter to the cap - that's why many "click". If you have this type you should always tighten until it clicks a few times which ensures it's tightened properly. As has been said above, if going for a "full fill" then stop when the pump clicks off. Probably a second click isn't going to do any harm, but no more than that - I'll admit I go for two clicks when we are setting off on one of our Devon journeys. If I fill the Ibiza up in this way we get all the way to Barnstaple on the tank full with enough fuel left to get intp town to refuel the next day. I've only ever heard stories of flooded carbon canisters, never actually come across one, but they tend to be expensive to replace so I don't take risks. Problems with the solenoid valve to the inlet manifold are more likely but not encountered often.

 

[koalar]

I agree with the above three posts

There is a risk in trying to replicate the fault. In unnecessary further damage, repairs and wasted fuel

S/H theres one at £25 at the moment so not a death nail


This seam look wider at right. Could just be the photo or muck


I’d leave the covers off for awhile and keep a eye on it.

Even a small leak should have a smell

 

[The Panda Nut]

Well, it's certainly being used by an increasing number of local authorities as a means of generating revenue.

Well, it's certainly being used by an increasing number of local authorities as a means of generating revenue.

As well as being complex, these systems are usually engineered down to the bare minimum; I have serious concerns about the long term effect on both reliability and maintainability. And a system which might just about produce a small emission saving when the vehicle is new may be next to useless once it's a few years old. If the net result is that a car ends up being replaced sooner than would otherwise be the case, then any marginal environmental benefits gained during its lifetime will be dwarfed by the massive environemental cost of producing a complete new vehicle.

AH now I know what its all about. I couldnt agree more about the usefulness of the whole lot of it. Questionable I think.
I was reading GEM site today and note their Tech man said how misrepresented diesel has been and how it still stacks up as a less harmful source of power. If governments stopped self interested messing about and got together to encourage the best use of available power sources we might just get somewhere, The justification for some of the £20 a year road tax bands isnt even paper thin, its obscene. All this stuff does is put money in the hands of the firms that make the emissions gear. I wonder where they are based and which governments are sponsoring them.... If the systems worked, delivered clean emissions, were properly tested and policed by the EU this ridiculous situation would not be here and we wouldnt be paying,,, over and over again as this rubbish breaks and causes MOT test failures to prop the useless and corrupt system up. If our spineless politicians got real we would be kicking the EU's door down and demanding compensation for the environmental damage this scandelous system has perpetuated. Its not just the car makers at fault here. And yes I know, I drive a TA Fiat. 67mpg my backside someone should go to prison for that fraudulent and scandelous claim and so should all the people who allowed the test that gave it credance. I hope the TA is passably long lived and the current ones claim of 37mpg is somewhere near normal use. But all the emnissions systems are a worry in terms of long term reliability and not least the batteries used. Im clear my 3and ahalf year old cars battery is already less strong than when new. All occasioned to support its 67mpg claims that were as valid as a fart in a force 9 gale. Soon we will be wasting more resources pauing out for another costly resource hevy item thats not contributing much at all. I can see me having either a horse or a new pair of shoes then the only emissions will be methane and hot air. For now fingers crossed the little 874cc wonder delivers what I need pottering about while being capable of mighty hikes if required but good for the environment its not, and better than my previous deisels on emissions, I doubt that too. But it Euro 6 ..... Rant over for another few weeks.

 

[jrkitching]

I couldnt agree more about the usefulness of the whole lot of it. Questionable I think.

It's a hugely expensive-to-replace system that purportedly prevents a miniscule amount of fuel vapour getting into the environment if it's working correctly and the activated charcoal in the canister hasn't been overloaded.

Yet for every litre of fuel we put in at the pumps when we refuel, we displace an equivalent volume of air, saturated with fuel vapour, straight back out of the filler pipe into the atmosphere.

 

[The Panda Nut]

I hope it has some contribution to that displaced vapour being reduced. In theory it should as the solenoid regualted what is drawn back as I understand it. Bottom line is if want a given amount of power you more or less need a set amount of fuel. A tiny TA with a turbo can do is or a bigger engine with less tech. A given amount of fuel will produce a pretty well set amount of exhaust and pollutants. Some of the gear may help reuce some components by conversion and neutalisation but I am not convinced its by a huge amount. To improve air quality we need to reduce the amount of power we use as the single biggest way of reducing fuel used. There are so many things that it would seem would give a greater return for the effort devoted to evapouration cannisters etc and one can but hope that some common sense is brought to the discussion before we get draconian actions imposed bynthe same weak minded people who pursue these things and the ludicrously ovepowered contrpations that masquarade as personal transport on over used and crowded roads. The only hope is that the younger generation are starting to think much more clearly about the future and how it can and must be changed. My son rang at the weekend and said he wants only two or three things. 1. Our beautiful plant kept safe and made more sustainable for the future, 2. The human race having a long term future and 3. Humans reaching out into space to colonize other places. I was pretty moved by this. No making more money and grabbing more things. Hes positive and sees a possible future where people are to be found in more of the universe and noone being sure where they actually came from. A bit beyond blue sky thinking? Maybe a little more outside the box thinking would get us a bit further than inside the cannister scope of this stuff.

 

[jrkitching]

I hope it has some contribution to that displaced vapour being reduced.

The EVAP system makes no difference whatsoever to the quantity of displaced vapour emitted when the car is refuelled - the air that's displaced when the fuel is added is saturated with fuel whatever the EVAP system is doing. In the UK, that just gets vented into the atmnosphere.

It only reduces the vapour that's emitted to atmosphere as the fuel warms when the day heats up.

To deal with emissions during refuelling, you need a vapour recovery system on the nozzle at the fuel pump, california style. You also need a similar but larger system when filling fuel station tanks from a tanker.

One major pollutant released during vehicle fuelling without a vapour recovery system is benzene, well known to be a carcinogen. It makes sense to try not to breathe any of it in when refuelling.

 

[BigAdam]

Afternoon.

Well, the leak was coming from the bottom two fittings, re-did the O-rings behind the connectors and that seemed to solve it. Also not filling the car up as full as I do it.

Still not sure I got the plastics on right, 3 studs / threads lined up, but the rear most one needed levering and swearing to get in, and its all a bit twisted and wrong looking.

 

[DaveMcT]

It's particularly serious for motorcycles and could cause a fatal accident.

Been there when a carburettor float valve intermittently stuck open. But it was only an issue in traffic when a puddle could collect whil waiting. I overhauled the cards and fitted new float valves but it was never fully solved.

 

[xf1ref]

Hello All, interesting topic because I also have some issues at my panda with the vapor cannister. It happend several times when I did the full tank refilling that the engine was choking untill stalled. After searching what could be the problem I discovered the reason, it was liquid petrol in the vapor pipe that is comming in the intake manifold solenoid.
Every time I did the refills until pump clicks off.
Also the trip consumption on the computer was always smaller than reality. The real consumption is around 7liters/100km and the copiter show less than 6liters.
The final conclusion is that the vapor cannister is dead.
Now I inserted a small plastic cap into the solenoid valve to not allow the petrol to choke the engine. With this also the petrol consumption indicated by the computer is closer to the reality.

It's woth it to change the carbon cannister? I have fond several second hands.

 

[jrkitching]

After searching what could be the problem I discovered the reason, it was liquid petrol in the vapor pipe that is coming in the intake manifold solenoid.
Every time I did the refills until pump clicks off.

This shouldn't happen if you never fill the car beyond the point when the pump click off for the first time.

Dribbling fuel in after this point is the usual cause of problems; that's why there's a clear and specific warning against doing so in the handbook.

Is it possible that a previous owner might at some time have put too much fuel in the car?

 

[xf1ref]

Is it possible that a previous owner might at some time have put too much fuel in the car?

For sure, I'm not the first owner. From the time when I bought the car the real mpg was higher than the one indicated by trip computer. Another side effect was that in the summer I have to crank for some time to turn on the engine and sometimes at idle is shaking. Without pipe connected to the solenoid the engine start immediately and no shaking. Seems that petrol vapors are coming into the engine when is stopped and when running are affecting the Lambda sensors.

 

[Twotone2]

I've just had a look at the manual for our car (Panda 4x4 2023) which is only a quick start guide and there's no mention about filling the car ref the first click at the petrol pump, I've never heard of doing this before either, mind you it's rare that I ever read a car owners manual

 

[koalar]

Over filling can stop the fuel vapour solenoid from working properly and is a simple fix.

I am out and about at the moment

But I test the solenoid somewhere in this thread

Koalar random thoughts | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

Got the car here for a few day 1.2 petrol 2011 Going to post a few pictures and video of some simple and basic tests My well be a bit random as they pop into my head and might sort them into the proper order later

www.fiatforum.com

But Basicly with the electrical connector still plugged in, engine at idle, there should not be any suction felt where the blue pipe should connect, you will need to wet you finger

And with the electrical connector removed there should be a slight vacuum

If it's not block the flow properly it's just one clip to change. I guess there is an outside chance the ECU isn't telling the solenoid to close

 

[xf1ref]

But Basicly with the electrical connector still plugged in, engine at idle, there should not be any suction felt where the blue pipe should connect, you will need to wet you finger

And with the electrical connector removed there should be a slight vacuum

If it's not block the flow properly it's just one clip to change

I bought a new solenoid but the behavior is the same. With the engine running at idle there is suction, same with or without connector plugged in.
While revving there is a click sound from the solenoid, as far as I know this is ok.
On tester I have no errors and on parameters the carbon cannister is working.

 

[koalar]

I bought a new solenoid but the behavior is the same. With the engine running at idle there is suction, same with or without connector plugged in.
While revving there is a click sound from the solenoid, as far as I know this is ok.
On tester I have no errors and on parameters the carbon cannister is working.

Well that will be you problem, it's not closing fully

It should remain closed with the engine cold

It should remain closed at idle

I suspect the ECU is doing its job properly as you can hear the solenoid opening as you rev the engine

Whether is a fail on fit part, or damaged due to petrol still in the canister I can't say

Here's Fiat take

​

MANAGEMENT OF FUEL VAPOUR RECIRCULATION​

The strategy controls the position of the vapour cut out solenoid valve as follows:

• during starting the solenoid valve remains closed preventing the fuel vapours from enriching the mixture excessively; this condition persists until the engine coolant reaches 65° C;
• when the engine has warmed up the electronic control unit sends the solenoid valve a square wave signal (duty-cycle) and the opening is modulated.

In this way the control unit controls the quantity of fuel vapours sent to the intake, preventing considerable variations in the mixture strength.

In order to improve engine operation, the solenoid valve operation is inhibited, maintaining the same closure position in the operating conditions listed below:

• throttle valve is closed position
• speed below 1500 rpm
• intake manifold pressure below a limit calculated by the control unit depending on the rpm.

If you want I can look up the wiring diagram and you can confirm it's operation, but as you can hear it opening I suspect it would just be a waste of your time