General Fiat panda 2005 1.3 multijet

[Goudrons]

I'm not saying this has happened exactly like this, but...

What if the dent in the sump has caused an oil pickup problem, hence the low pressure at start up.
A few litres of oil spread out in the sump isn't going to have a great depth and it doesn't take much of a dent to send the oil away from the pickup pipe.
If the impact was where the pickup pipe is, it could have even cracked it as I believe it's plastic.

I've heard of dented sumps causing oil pressure problem before with the 1.3 mtj, which is why I mentioned it before.

The lack of oil to the pump has also caused the chain to run untensioned for a while as the tensioner is oil fed. I believe the tensioner is already a bit of a weak point of the system.

This has caused the chain to clack and slap around causing the noise and probably a lot of chain stretch and worn parts. There might even be a bit of swarf and debris in the oil.

Perhaps your next move is to try and find a diesel specialist that's familiar with the 1.3 mtj and see what they think. They fitted this engine across a lot of vehicles, both cars and small vans and not just Fiat ones either Vauxhall fitted it to the Combo for years, so this shouldn't be hard.


I've seen oil coolers on these go and it's pretty obvious, water in the oil and oil in the water makes a right mess of the engine oil and the coolant tank.

 

[l33rsk]

both

the gaskets loose there elasticity. Then leak oil to the outside or into the coolant

Also if air is drawn in then be more likely for the oil to drain down to the sump and will also take time for the oil to be purged of the introduced air


there's a one way valve. If this starts to leak all the oil in the filter and exchange will drain away. No pressure can be made until its been replenished

so the warning light stays on longer


The oil on the turbo pipes look to have been there for tens of thousands of miles. Are you sure you can't see a leak ?

Can’t see any leaks it is a bit oily I think because of when I spilt the oil out of the oil filter housing also i haven’t any oil on the floor under the car.

 

[l33rsk]

I'm not saying this has happened exactly like this, but...

What if the dent in the sump has caused an oil pickup problem, hence the low pressure at start up.
A few litres of oil spread out in the sump isn't going to have a great depth and it doesn't take much of a dent to send the oil away from the pickup pipe.
If the impact was where the pickup pipe is, it could have even cracked it as I believe it's plastic.

I've heard of dented sumps causing oil pressure problem before with the 1.3 mtj, which is why I mentioned it before.

The lack of oil to the pump has also caused the chain to run untensioned for a while as the tensioner is oil fed. I believe the tensioner is already a bit of a weak point of the system.

This has caused the chain to clack and slap around causing the noise and probably a lot of chain stretch and worn parts. There might even be a bit of swarf and debris in the oil.

Perhaps your next move is to try and find a diesel specialist that's familiar with the 1.3 mtj and see what they think. They fitted this engine across a lot of vehicles, both cars and small vans and not just Fiat ones either Vauxhall fitted it to the Combo for years, so this shouldn't be hard.


I've seen oil coolers on these go and it's pretty obvious, water in the oil and oil in the water makes a right mess of the engine oil and the coolant tank.

I think the sump theory could be viable.

Going back to the beginning I can’t get my thoughts away from this only happened after the clutch was replaced so isn’t it related?

Am I correct in saying if the pickup pipe is actually damaged I will need to have the oil pump replaced as you need to remove it to get to the arm or can you buy the pickup separately and fit it without removing the oil pump?

Thanks

 

[koalar]

I'm not saying this has happened exactly like this, but...

What if the dent in the sump has caused an oil pickup problem, hence the low pressure at start up.
A few litres of oil spread out in the sump isn't going to have a great depth and it doesn't take much of a dent to send the oil away from the pickup pipe.
If the impact was where the pickup pipe is, it could have even cracked it as I believe it's plastic.

I've heard of dented sumps causing oil pressure problem before with the 1.3 mtj, which is why I mentioned it before.

The lack of oil to the pump has also caused the chain to run untensioned for a while as the tensioner is oil fed. I believe the tensioner is already a bit of a weak point of the system.

This has caused the chain to clack and slap around causing the noise and probably a lot of chain stretch and worn parts. There might even be a bit of swarf and debris in the oil.

Perhaps your next move is to try and find a diesel specialist that's familiar with the 1.3 mtj and see what they think. They fitted this engine across a lot of vehicles, both cars and small vans and not just Fiat ones either Vauxhall fitted it to the Combo for years, so this shouldn't be hard.


I've seen oil coolers on these go and it's pretty obvious, water in the oil and oil in the water makes a right mess of the engine oil and the coolant tank.

correct

I gave an example in post 53

I dont think there's any doubt the noise so the chain tensioner not getting oil pressure. Proven by the fact the light on. Below 3 psi

I would expect a sump / pickup pipe to also be a problem at low revs. More so on a hot restart






The fact the heat exchanger looks to have been leaking over the turbo oil feeds for the last 10 years

There a known problem with the heat exchanger that cause slow to build oil pressure when left to stand



I Guess you could do something like warm the engine up and turn it off. Remove the filter and add some oil directly to heat exchanger and see if it drains away as the engine cools ???


Is that a valid test. I don't know. Cant see why not. Maybe someone's tried it ??? has anyone some thoughts


I like the suggestion of finding another garage. Any garage that says its not the fault but we will charge you for changing it is playing parts roulette.

 

[koalar]

I think the sump theory could be viable.

Going back to the beginning I can’t get my thoughts away from this only happened after the clutch was replaced so isn’t it related?

Am I correct in saying if the pickup pipe is actually damaged I will need to have the oil pump replaced as you need to remove it to get to the arm or can you buy the pickup separately and fit it without removing the oil pump?

Thanks

the pipe bolts on. Two bolts and a gasket.

However its a BIG job because you can't remove the sump without removing the front exhaust and been a turbo there's a lot involved


They do get blocked or broken occasionally. Usually the symptoms are low pressure at idle

 

[Goudrons]

The exchanger might be weeping a little or the feed pipe, but they are both under quite a bit of pressure, doubly so for the exchanger as it has coolant pumped around it as well oil.

I once accidently loosened off a turbo feed pipe trying to get an alternator off the back of an X Type diesel engine by feel and left hand alone (bolts were next to each other, stupid design, not my fault obviously!) and it emptied 6 litres of prime synthetic in around 20 seconds!
And everyone that's split a hot coolant pipe, boiled over or been stupid enough to take the cap of a hot radiator will know hot coolant erupts like Old Faithful when it finds it's way out to the atmosphere.

It could be oil has been splattering down there at every oil change and top up for the last 16 years.
The only way to tell is clean it all off with some degreaser.

I can't think of a valid test that would pinpoint the cause of the problem without stripping it down.
Plus the damage seems to be done already (chain and tensioner and probably oil pump) so even fixing the cause even if it was a leak is only the tip of the iceberg and you'd never be totally certain that was the cause.

You need someone that can identify the cause of the damage and fix both the cause and the damage rather than just fix the damage.

Unfortunately that's likely to cost more than the car is worth.

 

[koalar]

The exchanger might be weeping a little or the feed pipe, but they are both under quite a bit of pressure, doubly so for the exchanger as it has coolant pumped around it as well oil.

I once accidently loosened off a turbo feed pipe trying to get an alternator off the back of an X Type diesel engine by feel and left hand alone (bolts were next to each other, stupid design, not my fault obviously!) and it emptied 6 litres of prime synthetic in around 20 seconds!
And everyone that's split a hot coolant pipe, boiled over or been stupid enough to take the cap of a hot radiator will know hot coolant erupts like Old Faithful when it finds it's way out to the atmosphere.

It could be oil has been splattering down there at every oil change and top up for the last 16 years.
The only way to tell is clean it all off with some degreaser.

I can't think of a valid test that would pinpoint the cause of the problem without stripping it down.
Plus the damage seems to be done already (chain and tensioner and probably oil pump) so even fixing the cause even if it was a leak is only the tip of the iceberg and you'd never be totally certain that was the cause.

You need someone that can identify the cause of the damage and fix both the cause and the damage rather than just fix the damage.

Unfortunately that's likely to cost more than the car is worth.

its only the anti drain valve that need testing

surely if you fill the bowl part up and it will either drain or not ?

or am I missing something. Probably staring me in the face

It only fails from cold start. Fine from hot start

 

[Goudrons]

The bowl has to have two holes, an in and an out.
Which is which and which should do what?

 

[koalar]

The bowl has to have two holes, an in and an out.
Which is which and which should do what?

doesn't the oil come up the centre and out through the filter. If its block it forces open the valve in cap and drains around the outside


just been looking on the Vauxhall forum. Give up. Shed loads with the same problem. Read 5 or 6 seems they just like to moan about Fiat a lot but not fix the problem.


I assume if you just let it stand and undo the housing there should be some oil left in the bottom. Not a great photo I know from a YouTube video

 

[l33rsk]

correct

I gave an example in post 53

I dont think there's any doubt the noise so the chain tensioner not getting oil pressure. Proven by the fact the light on. Below 3 psi

I would expect a sump / pickup pipe to also be a problem at low revs. More so on a hot restart






The fact the heat exchanger looks to have been leaking over the turbo oil feeds for the last 10 years

There a known problem with the heat exchanger that cause slow to build oil pressure when left to stand



I Guess you could do something like warm the engine up and turn it off. Remove the filter and add some oil directly to heat exchanger and see if it drains away as the engine cools ???


Is that a valid test. I don't know. Cant see why not. Maybe someone's tried it ??? has anyone some thoughts


I like the suggestion of finding another garage. Any garage that says its not the fault but we will charge you for changing it is playing parts roulette.

I have cleaned all the oil off today and at the same time replaced the oil sensor as I had already got it.

When the car has stud for a day or 2 the oil filter housing does have oil in the bottom of the bowl where the plunger sticks out.

After the original cold start with oil light on you don’t see it again while driving or leaving the car to idle also if you turn off the engine and leave for a minute or 2 and restart the light goes straight off.

If the car is left for a couple of hours it comes on when 1st started but doesn’t stay on as long as it does when it has stood over night.
Thanks

 

[l33rsk]

The exchanger might be weeping a little or the feed pipe, but they are both under quite a bit of pressure, doubly so for the exchanger as it has coolant pumped around it as well oil.

I once accidently loosened off a turbo feed pipe trying to get an alternator off the back of an X Type diesel engine by feel and left hand alone (bolts were next to each other, stupid design, not my fault obviously!) and it emptied 6 litres of prime synthetic in around 20 seconds!
And everyone that's split a hot coolant pipe, boiled over or been stupid enough to take the cap of a hot radiator will know hot coolant erupts like Old Faithful when it finds it's way out to the atmosphere.

It could be oil has been splattering down there at every oil change and top up for the last 16 years.
The only way to tell is clean it all off with some degreaser.

I can't think of a valid test that would pinpoint the cause of the problem without stripping it down.
Plus the damage seems to be done already (chain and tensioner and probably oil pump) so even fixing the cause even if it was a leak is only the tip of the iceberg and you'd never be totally certain that was the cause.

You need someone that can identify the cause of the damage and fix both the cause and the damage rather than just fix the damage.

Unfortunately that's likely to cost more than the car is worth.

I’m struggling to find a mechanic that knows about these engines and I still can’t get my head round this happening as soon as the car was started to back it off the ramp after the clutch was replaced I know it could be just a coincidence but the car was absolutely fine before the clutch was changed.
Thanks

 

[l33rsk]

The exchanger might be weeping a little or the feed pipe, but they are both under quite a bit of pressure, doubly so for the exchanger as it has coolant pumped around it as well oil.

I once accidently loosened off a turbo feed pipe trying to get an alternator off the back of an X Type diesel engine by feel and left hand alone (bolts were next to each other, stupid design, not my fault obviously!) and it emptied 6 litres of prime synthetic in around 20 seconds!
And everyone that's split a hot coolant pipe, boiled over or been stupid enough to take the cap of a hot radiator will know hot coolant erupts like Old Faithful when it finds it's way out to the atmosphere.

It could be oil has been splattering down there at every oil change and top up for the last 16 years.
The only way to tell is clean it all off with some degreaser.

I can't think of a valid test that would pinpoint the cause of the problem without stripping it down.
Plus the damage seems to be done already (chain and tensioner and probably oil pump) so even fixing the cause even if it was a leak is only the tip of the iceberg and you'd never be totally certain that was the cause.

You need someone that can identify the cause of the damage and fix both the cause and the damage rather than just fix the damage.

Unfortunately that's likely to cost more than the car is worth.

It doesn’t sound like a chain noise rattling it’s more of a wizzing noise than a rattle or bearing noise I’m going to have to see if I can record the noise. Isn’t this strange though no noise and oil light on for about 5 seconds then as noise starts the light goes out shouldn’t it be the other way round.

I’m struggling to find a decent mechanic which knows these engines as I wouldn’t attempt any of these jobs mentioned my self. I’m waiting for delivery of a pressure tester so I can read the oil pressure on cold start and I will video it.
Thanks

 

[l33rsk]

I’m now struggling to purchase oil pressure tester with the correct size fitting you mentioned 14mm x 1.5mm is that definitely correct?

I can only find 14mm x 1.25mm
Thanks

 

[koalar]

M14x1,5. oil pressure gauges normally comes with this as standard

I dont know the official PSI for the multijet I use 10 psi per every 1000 for most cars with a maximum of around 70.


There are s few exceptions such as the twinair.


this maybe of interest


http://www.bba-reman.com/forums/Topic121004.aspx

I’m now struggling to purchase oil pressure tester with the correct size fitting you mentioned 14mm x 1.5mm is that definitely correct?

I can only find 14mm x 1.25mm
Thanks

yes


I will have a quick look


this type comes as standard


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/328...68&&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22scene%22%3A%2223416%22%7D

 

[koalar]

just an example above. Dont order it will probably take 6 weeks and was just the First I found


I think you my have been looking at cylinder pressure gauges instead of oil pressure gauges

 

[l33rsk]

just an example above. Dont order it will probably take 6 weeks and was just the First I found


I think you my have been looking at cylinder pressure gauges instead of oil pressure gauges

That looks the same sort of thing I’ve seen on eBay but they list the closest size as 14 x 1.25

I use Alli express a lot for my phone parts and yes the delivery is about 7 weeks I can’t wait that long could you please check out eBay for me when you have the time. I’ve searched oil pressure gauge tester.
Thanks

 

[koalar]

That looks the same sort of thing I’ve seen on eBay but they list the closest size as 14 x 1.25

I use Alli express a lot for my phone parts and yes the delivery is about 7 weeks I can’t wait that long could you please check out eBay for me when you have the time. I’ve searched oil pressure gauge tester.
Thanks

I haven't checked to carefully but list m14 x 1.5
99.9% feedback
3 day postage

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/263449743936?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28

sure I have seen it on sale at £15 but lost the page somehow. Maybe I confused myself

 

[Goudrons]

doesn't the oil come up the centre and out through the filter. If its block it forces open the valve in cap and drains around the outside


just been looking on the Vauxhall forum. Give up. Shed loads with the same problem. Read 5 or 6 seems they just like to moan about Fiat a lot but not fix the problem.


I assume if you just let it stand and undo the housing there should be some oil left in the bottom. Not a great photo I know from a YouTube video

Lets say the wizzing noise and the oil light is due to lack of oil at the pump at start up.

And we presume the oil is fed up into the filter by the hole on the middle.

Perhaps one might be able to back fill the pump with some oil via this central hole, quickly refit the filter and cap, then try starting the engine and see if it makes a difference.

Though I can't see this actually pinpointing the exchanger/oil filter/oil filter housing being at fault.

If there's a leak in between the oil pickup and the filter housing before the exchanger (say pickup pipe) or the pickup pipe isn't submerged, it'll still drain back.

If you suck up liquid in a straw and hold your finger over then end, as long as the bottom of the straw is submerged it shouldn't syphon back, but if there's a hole in the straw above the line of liquid or you pull the bottom of the straw out of the liquid, it will just leak out.

 

[koalar]

Lets say the wizzing noise and the oil light is due to lack of oil at the pump at start up.

And we presume the oil is fed up into the filter by the hole on the middle.

Perhaps one might be able to back fill the pump with some oil via this central hole, quickly refit the filter and cap, then try starting the engine and see if it makes a difference.

Though I can't see this actually pinpointing the exchanger/oil filter/oil filter housing being at fault.

If there's a leak in between the oil pickup and the filter housing before the exchanger (say pickup pipe) or the pickup pipe isn't submerged, it'll still drain back.

If you suck up liquid in a straw and hold your finger over then end, as long as the bottom of the straw is submerged it shouldn't syphon back, but if there's a hole in the straw above the line of liquid or you pull the bottom of the straw out of the liquid, it will just leak out.

Thanks for taking the time to respond

I see It as a way to eliminate the pickup pipe and sump as it normally just air between the oil level and the pump? no anti drain valve and wide pipe

no it will not tell you if the problem is within the pump or housing


We have seen petrol engine version fail when bashed, yes I know its a different system. On those it cause a small leak between the pickup pipe and its mating gasket.

this sucking of air causes the light to come on at low revs. Same hot or cold but with no noticeable lag at startup


I wouldn't be very happy spending half a day changing a sump, pickup pipe and oil pump only to find out the fault is in the oil heat exchanger. Then again I wouldn't be very happy spending out for a S/H one for it not to fix the fault either.

 

[l33rsk]

No real update at the moment as I’m waiting for oil pressure tester. Just wanted to post this picture of a wire not connected or is it just an extra it looks to me to be very clean which says to me it was plugged it to something before. Thanks